3 ms·

Hong Kong was leased to Britain till 1997. Very different case. As for Taiwan, if they declared independence it will be an act of war. Don't forget that US pr

Hong Kong was leased to Britain till 1997. Very different case. As for Taiwan, if they declared independence it will be an act of war. Don't forget that US protects Taiwan on the basis it does not declare itself a sovereign country. Also, don't forget this is the official map of the Republic of China (Taiwan): https://i.redd.it/jbyegko5mkc21.jpg https://i.redd.it/jbyegko5mkc21.jpg

uniqueuid 4y ago
While these facts are important, they sound like Taiwan is unequivocally part of the PRC. But that's probably not what people in Taiwan or many western nations would say. - Taiwan clearly has the outward appearance of a full-fledged nation - There are (few) countries that have recognized it as a sovereign nation - Taiwan maintains some form of diplomatic relations, and Nancy Pelosi's recent visit was a very public sign of that - Taiwan and the PRC have been at war in the past Some might take this to say that the official status is contested.
- epolanski 4y ago
  > they sound like Taiwan is unequivocally part of the PRC No, they sound like Taiwan is part of China, something the entire world and Taiwan itself officially recognizes. It's like the US had a civil war and the losing side flees to Hawaii and in 2090 we still arguing whether it is part of not of US or should it declare independence.
  - uniqueuid 4y ago
    > It's like the US had a civil war and the losing side flees to Hawaii and in 2090 we still arguing whether it is part of not of US or should it declare independence. That actually sounds like a very plausible counterfactual to someone outside the US.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > No, they sound like Taiwan is part of China, something the entire world and Taiwan itself officially recognizes. That presumes the "official" position is the genuine position, which is often not the case. With regards to Taiwan, "official" positions are often lies tied in knots to appease Mainland China's sensibilities.
    - epolanski 4y ago
      There's an endless number of internal and international reasons beyond appeasing the PRC.
      - messe 4y ago
        Such as?
        epolanski 4y ago
        It is the basis of US-Taiwan relations as a starter.
        tablespoon 4y ago
        > It is the basis of US-Taiwan relations as a starter. Only in the context of the PRC. The reality of US-Taiwan relations would be much clearer if it was not PRC policy to sever diplomatic relationship with any country that recognizes Taiwan. On the topic of Taiwan, it's a mistake to reason about de facto relationships from de jure "official positions." Basically, the "official positions" are lies, and the actual positions are not directly stated. For instance, if the US really considered Taiwan as "part of China," it wouldn't be war-gaming how to militarily repel an invasion from the PRC.
glass3 4y ago
Only the New Territories were leased. >The colony faced an uncertain future as the end of the New Territories lease approached, and Governor Murray MacLehose raised the question of Hong Kong's status with Deng Xiaoping in 1979.[84] Diplomatic negotiations with China resulted in the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration, in which the United Kingdom agreed to transfer the colony in 1997 and China would guarantee Hong Kong's economic and political systems for 50 years after the transfer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong
- epolanski 4y ago
  So what are you debating?
  - jh721 4y ago
    > Hong Kong was leased to Britain till 1997. This is not accurate. The Hong Kong Island and the Kowloon Peninsula were ceded to Britain in perpetuity, not leased.
    - epolanski 4y ago
      Oh I didn't know that, I did remember that it was not feasible for Britain to keep HKI and KP after the lease of the NT ended, but I wasn't aware it was ceded in perpetuity.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
It was, but China also agreed to leave them along for a long time afterward and let them be relatively separate, and we all saw how that went. The CCP is not to be believed unless you have nuclear weapons aimed at them.

uniqueuid 4y ago

While these facts are important, they sound like Taiwan is unequivocally part of the PRC. But that's probably not what people in Taiwan or many western nations would say. - Taiwan clearly has the outward appearance of a full-fledged nation - There are (few) countries that have recognized it as a sovereign nation - Taiwan maintains some form of diplomatic relations, and Nancy Pelosi's recent visit was a very public sign of that - Taiwan and the PRC have been at war in the past Some might take this to say that the official status is contested.

epolanski 4y ago
> they sound like Taiwan is unequivocally part of the PRC No, they sound like Taiwan is part of China, something the entire world and Taiwan itself officially recognizes. It's like the US had a civil war and the losing side flees to Hawaii and in 2090 we still arguing whether it is part of not of US or should it declare independence.
- uniqueuid 4y ago
  > It's like the US had a civil war and the losing side flees to Hawaii and in 2090 we still arguing whether it is part of not of US or should it declare independence. That actually sounds like a very plausible counterfactual to someone outside the US.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > No, they sound like Taiwan is part of China, something the entire world and Taiwan itself officially recognizes. That presumes the "official" position is the genuine position, which is often not the case. With regards to Taiwan, "official" positions are often lies tied in knots to appease Mainland China's sensibilities.
  - epolanski 4y ago
    There's an endless number of internal and international reasons beyond appeasing the PRC.
    - messe 4y ago
      Such as?
      - epolanski 4y ago
        It is the basis of US-Taiwan relations as a starter.
        tablespoon 4y ago
        > It is the basis of US-Taiwan relations as a starter. Only in the context of the PRC. The reality of US-Taiwan relations would be much clearer if it was not PRC policy to sever diplomatic relationship with any country that recognizes Taiwan. On the topic of Taiwan, it's a mistake to reason about de facto relationships from de jure "official positions." Basically, the "official positions" are lies, and the actual positions are not directly stated. For instance, if the US really considered Taiwan as "part of China," it wouldn't be war-gaming how to militarily repel an invasion from the PRC.

glass3 4y ago

Only the New Territories were leased. >The colony faced an uncertain future as the end of the New Territories lease approached, and Governor Murray MacLehose raised the question of Hong Kong's status with Deng Xiaoping in 1979.[84] Diplomatic negotiations with China resulted in the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration, in which the United Kingdom agreed to transfer the colony in 1997 and China would guarantee Hong Kong's economic and political systems for 50 years after the transfer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong

epolanski 4y ago
So what are you debating?
- jh721 4y ago
  > Hong Kong was leased to Britain till 1997. This is not accurate. The Hong Kong Island and the Kowloon Peninsula were ceded to Britain in perpetuity, not leased.
  - epolanski 4y ago
    Oh I didn't know that, I did remember that it was not feasible for Britain to keep HKI and KP after the lease of the NT ended, but I wasn't aware it was ceded in perpetuity.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

It was, but China also agreed to leave them along for a long time afterward and let them be relatively separate, and we all saw how that went. The CCP is not to be believed unless you have nuclear weapons aimed at them.