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The Taiwanese concept of "unification" is not what you're thinking of. The Taiwanese faction supporting unification (usually the KMT) does not envision a world

The Taiwanese concept of "unification" is not what you're thinking of. The Taiwanese faction supporting unification (usually the KMT) does not envision a world where Taiwan is/becomes a province of the PRC, they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces, that is where they are in the seat of power in Beijing. I.e. this is something going in the opposite direction. The opposing faction rejects these ambitions and wants Taiwan to go its own way. EDIT: Since it's not necessarily military intervention.

adastra22 4y ago
That was Taiwanese politics in the 90’s. It doesn’t reflect current party policy.
- dwohnitmok 4y ago
  As far as I'm aware this is still the official party line of the KMT. It's just that now the DPP (their opposition) is in power.
  - bxtt 4y ago
    My parents are from Taiwan with my moms side hardline KMT govt officials, and Dad is Green Party/DPP - grew up listening about Taiwanese politics my entire life around friends and family. I’ve never heard of this stance. I’ve only heard of your stance on Reddit and Twitter within the past two years.
    - adastra22 4y ago
      My wife is from Taiwan, so I’m kinda clued into this even if once removed. Doesn’t trump your inside source though. My understanding is that in the last few decades the KMT had been following (in practice at least) a more business-friendly economic and regulatory unification with the mainland. The deals negotiated by the KMT with the PRC that led to the sunflower movement and the rise of the DPP were very much pro-status quo, pro-stability rejection of the historical KMT policy. The KMT has never officially given up the reconquest position, but it has been decades since that that was anymore than lip service to the one China idea. In practice KMT policies have been pro-unification in the EU or HK sense.
    - dwohnitmok 4y ago
      This stance is most recently and prominently known from the 1992 Consensus: > 中共當局認為『一個中國』即為『中華人民共和國』...，我方則認為『一個中國』應指1912年成立迄今之中華民國 > The CCP authorities believe "One China" to be the "People's Republic of China"..., we believe "One China" should refer to the Republic of China, founded in 1912 and persisting to this day. and its affirmation in 2012 by the then KMT administration: > 兩岸確已達成「一中各表」的共識，這是客觀的事實，我們主張的「一中」當然是中華民國。 > The two coasts have already reached a mutual understanding on "One China, Said Differently," of course the "One China" we support is the Republic of China. From the Taiwanese government MAC: https://www.mac.gov.tw/News_Content.aspx?n=B383123AEADAEE52&sms=2B7F1AE4AC63A181&s=97B32C942A0AE0C2 https://www.mac.gov.tw/News_Content.aspx?n=B383123AEADAEE52&... It's very much the idea that the ROC should control everything. Now as other comments point out, public perception among KMT detractors is that this is a sham, and even among KMT supporters there's not a clear message on how this situation would ever come about (and the main criticism in Taiwan against the KMT is that the only way that the KMT could ever hope to make this happen and indeed is/was doing in effect is by essentially capitulating to the PRC), but this is what the KMT puts out on official channels on what "reunification" means for the ROC.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    The DPP came into power when the KMT tried to negotiate the first steps towards HK-like reunification though.
ozmodiar 4y ago
I've never heard this take, even while in Taiwan. They aren't deluded, they know they aren't retaking the mainland. The reason they don't declare themselves a country is because China won't support it and they're worried it would trigger an invasion. China prefers Taiwan be a rebellious province rather than an independent country because it strengthens China's claim to the island. The KMT used to be feeling out a HK like integration with China but I think that's even more dead than it used to be.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  >> The Taiwanese faction supporting unification (usually the KMT) does not envision a world where Taiwan is/becomes a province of the PRC, they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces, that is where they are in the seat of power in Beijing. > I've never heard this take, even while in Taiwan. They aren't deluded, they know they aren't retaking the mainland. I wouldn't be surprised if that's still the KMT's "official" position, and it's probably one they genuinely held for a long time after they retreated to Taiwan. The Taiwan issue is interesting, because China's power and sensitivity means literally none of the important players except China officially says what they really mean, and maintain these ridiculous diplomatic fictions to avoid crossing China's lines.
  - brazzy 4y ago
    China absolutely does maintain its own diplomatic fictions. For example, a Taiwanese person travelling to the PRC needs a "Mainland travel permit for residents of the island of Taiwan", which is most emphatically neither a visa nor a passport despite fulfilling exactly those two functions.
- nl 4y ago
  Your impressions are all true, but Taiwan hasn't given up formal claim to mainland China. This is important because it allows the "policy of deliberate ambiguity": > There is deliberate ambiguity regarding the government of the country of 'China' (as well as what land this country constitutes). Currently, two governments claim legitimate rule and sovereignty over all of China, which they claim includes Mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan, as well as some other islands. > those from Taiwan who attend the Olympic Games and other various international organizations and events participate under the deliberately ambiguous name of "Chinese Taipei" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity
zucker42 4y ago
> they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces Is this really true? Sure, recapturing the mainland was the ideology of the KMT at the end of the Chinese Civil War, but KMT politicians would have to be extremely delusional to believe it's possible now. My understanding is that the modern KMT believes in increased economic integration with China and the maintenance of Chinese cultural idenity, while leaving the door open to future reunification under favorable political circumstances. The KMT is definitely considered the "pro-Beijing" major Taiwanese party in the 21st century.
- dwohnitmok 4y ago
  > My understanding is that the modern KMT believes in increased economic integration with China and the maintenance of Chinese cultural idenity, while leaving the door open to future reunification under favorable political circumstances. The KMT is definitely considered the "pro-Beijing" major Taiwanese party in the 21st century. It's quite difficult to separate out what the KMT really believes from what its detractors say it believes, real differences among its individual members, what it puts out in official statements, and what can be inferred from its actions. What you're saying is valid, especially the part about not believing it's possible (one thing I didn't emphasize in my original reply is that no one in Taiwan believes that reunification was ever going to happen any time soon, and focused more on just what "reunification" means) but "favorable political circumstances" is doing a lot of work there. That can span the gamut from "the PRC turns into a clone of the ROC and is immediately replaced" to "the ROC disappears altogether." There are also a lot of people who do view the KMT as toadies of the CCP. But the official party line unless they've come out with something more recent that I'm missing is that reunification means the ROC controls everything. My original point was that Taiwanese rhetoric on "reunification" has always been very very different than what reunification has meant for Hong Kong.
brazzy 4y ago
My wife is from Taiwan, and what you wrote is a warped understanding of how things were 40 years ago. The official position of all Taiwanese parties is that Taiwan and China are one nation divided by temporary difficulties, because China has threatened war if they say anything else. The inofficial position of the DPP (current government party) is that of fucking course Taiwan is de facto a separate sovereign country, and we like it that way, so let's not do anything to risk it. The inofficial position of the KMT is that they are in the pocket of the CCP, and a big fan of every possible concession that won't scare their voters too much.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
Anyone who thinks China's CCP will allow an autonomous Taiwan is living in a fantasy land.

adastra22 4y ago

That was Taiwanese politics in the 90’s. It doesn’t reflect current party policy.

dwohnitmok 4y ago
As far as I'm aware this is still the official party line of the KMT. It's just that now the DPP (their opposition) is in power.
- bxtt 4y ago
  My parents are from Taiwan with my moms side hardline KMT govt officials, and Dad is Green Party/DPP - grew up listening about Taiwanese politics my entire life around friends and family. I’ve never heard of this stance. I’ve only heard of your stance on Reddit and Twitter within the past two years.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    My wife is from Taiwan, so I’m kinda clued into this even if once removed. Doesn’t trump your inside source though. My understanding is that in the last few decades the KMT had been following (in practice at least) a more business-friendly economic and regulatory unification with the mainland. The deals negotiated by the KMT with the PRC that led to the sunflower movement and the rise of the DPP were very much pro-status quo, pro-stability rejection of the historical KMT policy. The KMT has never officially given up the reconquest position, but it has been decades since that that was anymore than lip service to the one China idea. In practice KMT policies have been pro-unification in the EU or HK sense.
  - dwohnitmok 4y ago
    This stance is most recently and prominently known from the 1992 Consensus: > 中共當局認為『一個中國』即為『中華人民共和國』...，我方則認為『一個中國』應指1912年成立迄今之中華民國 > The CCP authorities believe "One China" to be the "People's Republic of China"..., we believe "One China" should refer to the Republic of China, founded in 1912 and persisting to this day. and its affirmation in 2012 by the then KMT administration: > 兩岸確已達成「一中各表」的共識，這是客觀的事實，我們主張的「一中」當然是中華民國。 > The two coasts have already reached a mutual understanding on "One China, Said Differently," of course the "One China" we support is the Republic of China. From the Taiwanese government MAC: https://www.mac.gov.tw/News_Content.aspx?n=B383123AEADAEE52&sms=2B7F1AE4AC63A181&s=97B32C942A0AE0C2 https://www.mac.gov.tw/News_Content.aspx?n=B383123AEADAEE52&... It's very much the idea that the ROC should control everything. Now as other comments point out, public perception among KMT detractors is that this is a sham, and even among KMT supporters there's not a clear message on how this situation would ever come about (and the main criticism in Taiwan against the KMT is that the only way that the KMT could ever hope to make this happen and indeed is/was doing in effect is by essentially capitulating to the PRC), but this is what the KMT puts out on official channels on what "reunification" means for the ROC.
- adastra22 4y ago
  The DPP came into power when the KMT tried to negotiate the first steps towards HK-like reunification though.

ozmodiar 4y ago

I've never heard this take, even while in Taiwan. They aren't deluded, they know they aren't retaking the mainland. The reason they don't declare themselves a country is because China won't support it and they're worried it would trigger an invasion. China prefers Taiwan be a rebellious province rather than an independent country because it strengthens China's claim to the island. The KMT used to be feeling out a HK like integration with China but I think that's even more dead than it used to be.

tablespoon 4y ago
>> The Taiwanese faction supporting unification (usually the KMT) does not envision a world where Taiwan is/becomes a province of the PRC, they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces, that is where they are in the seat of power in Beijing. > I've never heard this take, even while in Taiwan. They aren't deluded, they know they aren't retaking the mainland. I wouldn't be surprised if that's still the KMT's "official" position, and it's probably one they genuinely held for a long time after they retreated to Taiwan. The Taiwan issue is interesting, because China's power and sensitivity means literally none of the important players except China officially says what they really mean, and maintain these ridiculous diplomatic fictions to avoid crossing China's lines.
- brazzy 4y ago
  China absolutely does maintain its own diplomatic fictions. For example, a Taiwanese person travelling to the PRC needs a "Mainland travel permit for residents of the island of Taiwan", which is most emphatically neither a visa nor a passport despite fulfilling exactly those two functions.
nl 4y ago
Your impressions are all true, but Taiwan hasn't given up formal claim to mainland China. This is important because it allows the "policy of deliberate ambiguity": > There is deliberate ambiguity regarding the government of the country of 'China' (as well as what land this country constitutes). Currently, two governments claim legitimate rule and sovereignty over all of China, which they claim includes Mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan, as well as some other islands. > those from Taiwan who attend the Olympic Games and other various international organizations and events participate under the deliberately ambiguous name of "Chinese Taipei" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity

zucker42 4y ago

> they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces Is this really true? Sure, recapturing the mainland was the ideology of the KMT at the end of the Chinese Civil War, but KMT politicians would have to be extremely delusional to believe it's possible now. My understanding is that the modern KMT believes in increased economic integration with China and the maintenance of Chinese cultural idenity, while leaving the door open to future reunification under favorable political circumstances. The KMT is definitely considered the "pro-Beijing" major Taiwanese party in the 21st century.

dwohnitmok 4y ago
> My understanding is that the modern KMT believes in increased economic integration with China and the maintenance of Chinese cultural idenity, while leaving the door open to future reunification under favorable political circumstances. The KMT is definitely considered the "pro-Beijing" major Taiwanese party in the 21st century. It's quite difficult to separate out what the KMT really believes from what its detractors say it believes, real differences among its individual members, what it puts out in official statements, and what can be inferred from its actions. What you're saying is valid, especially the part about not believing it's possible (one thing I didn't emphasize in my original reply is that no one in Taiwan believes that reunification was ever going to happen any time soon, and focused more on just what "reunification" means) but "favorable political circumstances" is doing a lot of work there. That can span the gamut from "the PRC turns into a clone of the ROC and is immediately replaced" to "the ROC disappears altogether." There are also a lot of people who do view the KMT as toadies of the CCP. But the official party line unless they've come out with something more recent that I'm missing is that reunification means the ROC controls everything. My original point was that Taiwanese rhetoric on "reunification" has always been very very different than what reunification has meant for Hong Kong.

brazzy 4y ago

My wife is from Taiwan, and what you wrote is a warped understanding of how things were 40 years ago. The official position of all Taiwanese parties is that Taiwan and China are one nation divided by temporary difficulties, because China has threatened war if they say anything else. The inofficial position of the DPP (current government party) is that of fucking course Taiwan is de facto a separate sovereign country, and we like it that way, so let's not do anything to risk it. The inofficial position of the KMT is that they are in the pocket of the CCP, and a big fan of every possible concession that won't scare their voters too much.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

Anyone who thinks China's CCP will allow an autonomous Taiwan is living in a fantasy land.