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I posted this earlier [1] but it’s an interesting little twist to this story… While EA was busy destroying the SimCity brand with unadulterated capitalist gree

by pavlov 4y ago

I posted this earlier [1] but it’s an interesting little twist to this story… While EA was busy destroying the SimCity brand with unadulterated capitalist greed, Cities: Skylines was created with public funding from the Finnish government. No VCs wanted to invest in such a niche company. They were only able to get off the ground thanks to money from Finland’s public startup funding and arts grants. Capitalism on its own isn’t always enough to ensure that successful products get built. Sometimes it takes public funding to salvage a good idea that capitalism managed to burn down. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35047255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35047255

chris_va 4y ago
How are we defining capitalism here? Because, you know, people are still getting paid for the work they are doing.
- getpoked 4y ago
  Getting paid for work is not the core underlying proposition of capitalism.
  - chris_va 4y ago
    voluntary exchange and wage labor are... I am not seeing a contradiction here
    - zokula 4y ago
      [dead]
rasjani 4y ago
Finn here and i know the game and company and by no means Im not downplaying what you said but; In general - there are quite a few possibilities to apply for grants and similar monetary benefits from the goverment, municipalities and few ngo's here. And as a finn - I would find it actually miraculous that company such as Colossal Order would have never ever benefited from public funding.
kevinventullo 4y ago
Interesting! I suppose they recouped their investment via taxes.
calsy 4y ago
A single example of government funding an indie developer of a niche title proves that the entire industry up until this point has been going about it wrong? Government bureaucracy and inefficient spending never burned down good ideas? Never wasted untold billions on failed projects? When it comes to innovative ideas and forward thinking, people turn to short sighted bureaucracy and public funding.
- jhanschoo 4y ago
  The post you are responding to isn't claiming that > the entire industry up until this point has been going about it wrong? but it sometimes goes about it wrong. > Capitalism on its own isn’t __always enough__ to ensure that successful products get built. You are building up a strawman and attacking it with very hostile language. I would also disagree with your assumption that governments are inefficient, as there are good examples of efficient governments. Governments can get it right too, and the parent comment certainly isn't suggesting that governments are always right. Every criticism you have levied: "burn[ing] down good ideas", "wasted untold billions on failed projects", "short sighted"-ness also have examples in the private sector and even with public companies.
  - calsy 4y ago
    Yes it does say exactly that. EA is not an isolated company afflicted with capitalism. When you say a companies failures are due to capitalist greed, that means something. You are blaming the fundamental economic principles that the majority of publishers (and western businesses) operate on. Words like greed imply there is an inherent evil or 'sin' in capitalism that corrupts, and EA has somehow become its victim. In steps our hero the government with its keen eye for missed opportunities to save the day. There is absolutely no assumption's about the inefficiency of bureaucracy and government.
    - pavlov 4y ago
      That’s a completely incorrect interpretation of what I wrote. EA destroyed a valuable brand by managerial greed. That’s a fact. Another company got funded by public means when capitalist institutions didn’t want to give them the time of day, and is now a successful business. That’s another fact. I didn’t say anything about an inherent evil or sin. If you believe capitalism always executes perfectly and is beyond criticism, that’s your ideological position. You may be projecting this expectation of ideology onto others.
fy20 4y ago
This is somewhat out of context. Colosal Order developed two niche games before C:S; a transport simulator series called Cities in Motion. They received government funding before the first game was released. Many European countries have grants, tax cuts or loans for new businesses, so it's not anything unusual. CiM 2 is a really good game, and very beautiful (which I guess is how they got the idea to build C:S). The focus is on transportation, and it does a much better job of simulating it than C:S (no despawning for starts). It has a few bugs and performance issues which I guess will never be fixed now, but worth playing if you like games that are a bit more constrained. https://youtu.be/Bkwbajm7nG8 https://youtu.be/Bkwbajm7nG8
- pavlov 4y ago
  > “…it's not anything unusual.” I would argue it’s actually unusual on HN to hear such an origin story for a successful business. Everybody has heard a hundred versions of the VC-funded twenty-something boy genius and also the bootstrapped hustler… But the story where your seed funding comes from government grants in a small European country doesn’t align with that kind of hero founder narratives. Personally I got started in the software business with a Finnish government loan too, and I’m grateful for it. So I wanted to highlight that this actually happens and leads to products that people want.
- rags2riches 4y ago
  I liked Cities in Motion. But like many other games like it, the joy dies when the UI can't keep up with the growing complexity as I build. Things that were easy in the beginning become a chore later on. That's when I give up and move on.

by pavlov 4y ago

chris_va 4y ago

How are we defining capitalism here? Because, you know, people are still getting paid for the work they are doing.

getpoked 4y ago
Getting paid for work is not the core underlying proposition of capitalism.
- chris_va 4y ago
  voluntary exchange and wage labor are... I am not seeing a contradiction here
  - zokula 4y ago
    [dead]

rasjani 4y ago

Finn here and i know the game and company and by no means Im not downplaying what you said but; In general - there are quite a few possibilities to apply for grants and similar monetary benefits from the goverment, municipalities and few ngo's here. And as a finn - I would find it actually miraculous that company such as Colossal Order would have never ever benefited from public funding.

kevinventullo 4y ago

Interesting! I suppose they recouped their investment via taxes.

calsy 4y ago

A single example of government funding an indie developer of a niche title proves that the entire industry up until this point has been going about it wrong? Government bureaucracy and inefficient spending never burned down good ideas? Never wasted untold billions on failed projects? When it comes to innovative ideas and forward thinking, people turn to short sighted bureaucracy and public funding.

jhanschoo 4y ago
The post you are responding to isn't claiming that > the entire industry up until this point has been going about it wrong? but it sometimes goes about it wrong. > Capitalism on its own isn’t __always enough__ to ensure that successful products get built. You are building up a strawman and attacking it with very hostile language. I would also disagree with your assumption that governments are inefficient, as there are good examples of efficient governments. Governments can get it right too, and the parent comment certainly isn't suggesting that governments are always right. Every criticism you have levied: "burn[ing] down good ideas", "wasted untold billions on failed projects", "short sighted"-ness also have examples in the private sector and even with public companies.
- calsy 4y ago
  Yes it does say exactly that. EA is not an isolated company afflicted with capitalism. When you say a companies failures are due to capitalist greed, that means something. You are blaming the fundamental economic principles that the majority of publishers (and western businesses) operate on. Words like greed imply there is an inherent evil or 'sin' in capitalism that corrupts, and EA has somehow become its victim. In steps our hero the government with its keen eye for missed opportunities to save the day. There is absolutely no assumption's about the inefficiency of bureaucracy and government.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    That’s a completely incorrect interpretation of what I wrote. EA destroyed a valuable brand by managerial greed. That’s a fact. Another company got funded by public means when capitalist institutions didn’t want to give them the time of day, and is now a successful business. That’s another fact. I didn’t say anything about an inherent evil or sin. If you believe capitalism always executes perfectly and is beyond criticism, that’s your ideological position. You may be projecting this expectation of ideology onto others.

fy20 4y ago

This is somewhat out of context. Colosal Order developed two niche games before C:S; a transport simulator series called Cities in Motion. They received government funding before the first game was released. Many European countries have grants, tax cuts or loans for new businesses, so it's not anything unusual. CiM 2 is a really good game, and very beautiful (which I guess is how they got the idea to build C:S). The focus is on transportation, and it does a much better job of simulating it than C:S (no despawning for starts). It has a few bugs and performance issues which I guess will never be fixed now, but worth playing if you like games that are a bit more constrained. https://youtu.be/Bkwbajm7nG8 https://youtu.be/Bkwbajm7nG8

pavlov 4y ago
> “…it's not anything unusual.” I would argue it’s actually unusual on HN to hear such an origin story for a successful business. Everybody has heard a hundred versions of the VC-funded twenty-something boy genius and also the bootstrapped hustler… But the story where your seed funding comes from government grants in a small European country doesn’t align with that kind of hero founder narratives. Personally I got started in the software business with a Finnish government loan too, and I’m grateful for it. So I wanted to highlight that this actually happens and leads to products that people want.
rags2riches 4y ago
I liked Cities in Motion. But like many other games like it, the joy dies when the UI can't keep up with the growing complexity as I build. Things that were easy in the beginning become a chore later on. That's when I give up and move on.