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IPv6... Can it just go away already? Adoption has been declining for years. Many devices don't support it. Many services seemingly support it but break in stra

IPv6... Can it just go away already? Adoption has been declining for years. Many devices don't support it. Many services seemingly support it but break in strange ways. And not to mention it's a subtle and yet powerful privacy attack vector.

Plasmoid 4y ago
IPv6 adoption has been increasing.
dmd 4y ago
On what metric does this look like it's declining? https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html
- eqvinox 4y ago
  That graph also shows another interesting bit: it seems that IPv6 usage is higher on weekends — i.e. home internet connections. So it's even worse that Roku of all people doesn't support IPv6, considering IPv6 is ahead in homes.
ArchOversight 4y ago
> Adoption has been declining for years. Source? > Many devices don't support it. Source? > Many services seemingly support it but break in strange ways. Got any examples? > And not to mention it's a subtle and yet powerful privacy attack vector. This is the only statement you've made that has any merit, and even then very little. Privacy Addresses have been a thing for a while, and most OS's support it. No longer are there stable addresses being generated from the MAC address, and all outbound connections are now on randomized addresses from the /64 that is announced through SLAAC. Just like IPv4 having a single address for a household, IPv6 has a /64 per household (although many ISP's let you request more if you want). IPv6 is growing, more and more traffic is going over IPv6 and it is not likely to go away any time soon.
- zamadatix 4y ago
  Taking some points from their side not because I necessarily agree with the conclusion but just because this comment comes off a little strong: Adoption hasn't been declining by any measure but the adoption rate isn't as high as it was 5 years ago. Of course eventually the rate has to slow down because there is less and less to change over so that doesn't mean much. Overall though adoption has continued to increase without any long term dips. Many devices don't support it is probably one I consider true though. It's getting way better as the years go on but it's fair to say the world isn't past IPv4 only devices in households by any measure. Typically embedded products are the worst. Home security stuff, point of sale gear, older or just crappy media devices, oddly some IoT type devices like a fridge. Plenty of gear also supports it but just very poorly. Of those that do not all understand NAT64 either so while they may support IPv6 but they don't necessarily work without IPv4 (this also getting better as more services move to supporting IPv6 too). SIP and WebSocket are examples of some protocols that can break services under NAT64, especially with so much of the web being v4 only. They should be fine if the world ever moves 100% to IPv6 though. The era of misconfigured AAAA records wreaking havoc thankfully seems to have come to an end. I don't have anything to add on the privacy discussion, I think you nailed it there.
  - winstonprivacy 4y ago
    > Many devices don't support it is probably one I consider true though. It's getting way better as the years go on but it's fair to say the world isn't past IPv4 only devices in households by any measure. Typically embedded products are the worst. Home security stuff, point of sale gear, older or just crappy media devices, oddly some IoT type devices like a fridge. Plenty of gear also supports it but just very poorly. Of those that do not all understand NAT64 either so while they may support IPv6 but they don't necessarily work without IPv4 (this also getting better as more services move to supporting IPv6 too). This is very much the case. I used to compile statistics about various devices for our network gateway. ipv6 support was very hit or miss and was the root cause of many spurious support tickets.
- winstonprivacy 4y ago
  Here you go: https://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2022-02/ipv6-fig4.png https://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2022-02/ipv6-fig4.png also: https://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2022-02/ipv6-fig5.png https://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2022-02/ipv6-fig5.png You can answer the rest of your own questions. I am not your personal Google.
ehPReth 4y ago
hmmm no thanks. i'd very much like to not have to deal with NAT anymore, just some firewall rules instead. do temporary addresses do nothing?
JohnFen 4y ago
There remains the problem that we've run out of IPv4 addresses. I agree that IPv6 was not the ideal solution to this, but it's the only solution we have.
- digitalsushi 4y ago
  I'm going to ask this and it's going to sound accusatory but I insist it's innocent: what is a more ideal solution than what we have?
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    I don't know, it's not my specialty, not an issue I've spent any time researching, and the ideal solution depends on the requirements that are trying to be met. I also don't know what all those requirements are. IPv6 is obviously addressing many requirement beyond IP space exhaustion, though. When I speak of an "ideal solution", I'm speaking about just addressing that issue. Even if I had a perfect solution at the ready, it wouldn't matter. We have to work with standards, and the adopted standard is IPv6. So it's the only solution we have available.

Plasmoid 4y ago

IPv6 adoption has been increasing.

dmd 4y ago

On what metric does this look like it's declining? https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html

eqvinox 4y ago
That graph also shows another interesting bit: it seems that IPv6 usage is higher on weekends — i.e. home internet connections. So it's even worse that Roku of all people doesn't support IPv6, considering IPv6 is ahead in homes.

ArchOversight 4y ago

> Adoption has been declining for years. Source? > Many devices don't support it. Source? > Many services seemingly support it but break in strange ways. Got any examples? > And not to mention it's a subtle and yet powerful privacy attack vector. This is the only statement you've made that has any merit, and even then very little. Privacy Addresses have been a thing for a while, and most OS's support it. No longer are there stable addresses being generated from the MAC address, and all outbound connections are now on randomized addresses from the /64 that is announced through SLAAC. Just like IPv4 having a single address for a household, IPv6 has a /64 per household (although many ISP's let you request more if you want). IPv6 is growing, more and more traffic is going over IPv6 and it is not likely to go away any time soon.

zamadatix 4y ago
Taking some points from their side not because I necessarily agree with the conclusion but just because this comment comes off a little strong: Adoption hasn't been declining by any measure but the adoption rate isn't as high as it was 5 years ago. Of course eventually the rate has to slow down because there is less and less to change over so that doesn't mean much. Overall though adoption has continued to increase without any long term dips. Many devices don't support it is probably one I consider true though. It's getting way better as the years go on but it's fair to say the world isn't past IPv4 only devices in households by any measure. Typically embedded products are the worst. Home security stuff, point of sale gear, older or just crappy media devices, oddly some IoT type devices like a fridge. Plenty of gear also supports it but just very poorly. Of those that do not all understand NAT64 either so while they may support IPv6 but they don't necessarily work without IPv4 (this also getting better as more services move to supporting IPv6 too). SIP and WebSocket are examples of some protocols that can break services under NAT64, especially with so much of the web being v4 only. They should be fine if the world ever moves 100% to IPv6 though. The era of misconfigured AAAA records wreaking havoc thankfully seems to have come to an end. I don't have anything to add on the privacy discussion, I think you nailed it there.
- winstonprivacy 4y ago
  > Many devices don't support it is probably one I consider true though. It's getting way better as the years go on but it's fair to say the world isn't past IPv4 only devices in households by any measure. Typically embedded products are the worst. Home security stuff, point of sale gear, older or just crappy media devices, oddly some IoT type devices like a fridge. Plenty of gear also supports it but just very poorly. Of those that do not all understand NAT64 either so while they may support IPv6 but they don't necessarily work without IPv4 (this also getting better as more services move to supporting IPv6 too). This is very much the case. I used to compile statistics about various devices for our network gateway. ipv6 support was very hit or miss and was the root cause of many spurious support tickets.
winstonprivacy 4y ago
Here you go: https://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2022-02/ipv6-fig4.png https://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2022-02/ipv6-fig4.png also: https://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2022-02/ipv6-fig5.png https://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2022-02/ipv6-fig5.png You can answer the rest of your own questions. I am not your personal Google.

ehPReth 4y ago

hmmm no thanks. i'd very much like to not have to deal with NAT anymore, just some firewall rules instead. do temporary addresses do nothing?

JohnFen 4y ago

There remains the problem that we've run out of IPv4 addresses. I agree that IPv6 was not the ideal solution to this, but it's the only solution we have.

digitalsushi 4y ago
I'm going to ask this and it's going to sound accusatory but I insist it's innocent: what is a more ideal solution than what we have?
- JohnFen 4y ago
  I don't know, it's not my specialty, not an issue I've spent any time researching, and the ideal solution depends on the requirements that are trying to be met. I also don't know what all those requirements are. IPv6 is obviously addressing many requirement beyond IP space exhaustion, though. When I speak of an "ideal solution", I'm speaking about just addressing that issue. Even if I had a perfect solution at the ready, it wouldn't matter. We have to work with standards, and the adopted standard is IPv6. So it's the only solution we have available.