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> There is no need for housing investments to have competitive yields I personally agree but you are not describing the economic system we live in. > I don't

> There is no need for housing investments to have competitive yields I personally agree but you are not describing the economic system we live in. > I don't worry that people will stop making socks, shoes, or food because the profit margin in that business is lower than the market yield. This happens all of the time - but the market finds another equilibrium and continues to provide the good. > It is like saying that city run food kitchens would be more efficient than people cooking at home. Generally agreed - this would be more efficient. I also do not want it. It's more efficient in every way. There are significant economies of scale. There is a reason armies do not have each individual soldier cook their meals. > I think most people would agree the goal is higher ownership and lower costs than now. 100% agree - but my point is that this is a local maxima. If we wish to globally minimize "total resource expenditure" then the Platonic best system is some perfectly managed hyper-apartment arrangement with the "optimal" allocation of affordances. Though, as I said, reasonable people can value things other than costs. We are generally always in a local maxima - but it's good to remember it.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
>I personally agree but you are not describing the economic system we live in... This happens all of the time - but the market finds another equilibrium and continues to provide the good I just dont think we are on the same page here or think this is accurate for our system. The 1% profitable sock factory doesn't shut down because some investor somewhere starts making 100% ROI on bitcoins or tech stock. A carpenter doesn't lay down his tools because fund manager somewhere is making big bucks. I agree the prevailing rates on capital can have impacts on new growth in capital intensive industries, but that doesn't mean you wont be able to find a homebuilder if you have cash in your pocket. >Generally agreed - this would be more efficient. I also do not want it. It's more efficient in every way. There are significant economies of scale. There is a reason armies do not have each individual soldier cook their meals. I don't think resources like labor and time are truly fungible and can be treated as interchangeable. Efficiency is relative to the measure of value and the person making the valuation. If I don't value my time or even enjoy cooking, paying someone to do it is not efficient for me, even if there are huge economies of scale. It might be efficient in terms of total hours to some central planner, but their valuation of my time and labor is not the same as mine. I am still paying money for labor that would otherwise be free. It may be horribly inefficient. There is no maximally efficient platonic system without a universally imposed definition of the measures being optimized.
- aeturnum 4y ago
  > There is no maximally efficient platonic system without a universally imposed definition of the measures being optimized. Totally agree! All my global statements are gesturing towards the idea of such an idea - which is of course impossible but can be helpful to weigh alternatives. > I just dont think we are on the same page here or think this is accurate for our system. [...] I agree with everything you say here so I apologize for talking past you. What I was saying is that, within an investment category, higher yields chase out lower ones. It's not that the sock maker gets out-competed by bitcoin - it's that the person trying to sell "barely good enough" socks in the developed world gets zero shelf space compared to other options. Their product is profitable at the unit level, but can't find buyers efficiently enough to support the costs of doing so. If you are searching for investment at a "below-market" rate, you are going to be at the back of the queue. Also, because you are definitionally working on low margins, your ability to adapt for unforeseen circumstances is h̶i̶g̶h̶ low, increasing your risk. That puts those kinds of financial approaches in a "high risk, low yield" quadrant as far as I can see it. We could, of course, simply choose to build housing at close-to-cost and then package & sell that as bonds (basically). You could probably find takers, even if it's riskier than many bonds, but you need to have the funding assembled beforehand. I just mean that it's a hard problem and I see why these systems have not risen up naturally in our building ecosystem. > valuation of my time and labor is not the same as mine You are absolutely correct that this is an impossible problem to solve practically, but in a thought experiment it's simple to say that the central planner perfectly discovers & enumerates every individuals' value on time and labor and creates the optimal system with that in mind. Edit: used the wrong word

s1artibartfast 4y ago

>I personally agree but you are not describing the economic system we live in... This happens all of the time - but the market finds another equilibrium and continues to provide the good I just dont think we are on the same page here or think this is accurate for our system. The 1% profitable sock factory doesn't shut down because some investor somewhere starts making 100% ROI on bitcoins or tech stock. A carpenter doesn't lay down his tools because fund manager somewhere is making big bucks. I agree the prevailing rates on capital can have impacts on new growth in capital intensive industries, but that doesn't mean you wont be able to find a homebuilder if you have cash in your pocket. >Generally agreed - this would be more efficient. I also do not want it. It's more efficient in every way. There are significant economies of scale. There is a reason armies do not have each individual soldier cook their meals. I don't think resources like labor and time are truly fungible and can be treated as interchangeable. Efficiency is relative to the measure of value and the person making the valuation. If I don't value my time or even enjoy cooking, paying someone to do it is not efficient for me, even if there are huge economies of scale. It might be efficient in terms of total hours to some central planner, but their valuation of my time and labor is not the same as mine. I am still paying money for labor that would otherwise be free. It may be horribly inefficient. There is no maximally efficient platonic system without a universally imposed definition of the measures being optimized.

aeturnum 4y ago
> There is no maximally efficient platonic system without a universally imposed definition of the measures being optimized. Totally agree! All my global statements are gesturing towards the idea of such an idea - which is of course impossible but can be helpful to weigh alternatives. > I just dont think we are on the same page here or think this is accurate for our system. [...] I agree with everything you say here so I apologize for talking past you. What I was saying is that, within an investment category, higher yields chase out lower ones. It's not that the sock maker gets out-competed by bitcoin - it's that the person trying to sell "barely good enough" socks in the developed world gets zero shelf space compared to other options. Their product is profitable at the unit level, but can't find buyers efficiently enough to support the costs of doing so. If you are searching for investment at a "below-market" rate, you are going to be at the back of the queue. Also, because you are definitionally working on low margins, your ability to adapt for unforeseen circumstances is h̶i̶g̶h̶ low, increasing your risk. That puts those kinds of financial approaches in a "high risk, low yield" quadrant as far as I can see it. We could, of course, simply choose to build housing at close-to-cost and then package & sell that as bonds (basically). You could probably find takers, even if it's riskier than many bonds, but you need to have the funding assembled beforehand. I just mean that it's a hard problem and I see why these systems have not risen up naturally in our building ecosystem. > valuation of my time and labor is not the same as mine You are absolutely correct that this is an impossible problem to solve practically, but in a thought experiment it's simple to say that the central planner perfectly discovers & enumerates every individuals' value on time and labor and creates the optimal system with that in mind. Edit: used the wrong word