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Replace 'computers' with 'open source software' and you are something closer to an uncomfortable truth. Open source has been critical to the advancement of our

Replace 'computers' with 'open source software' and you are something closer to an uncomfortable truth. Open source has been critical to the advancement of our world but people who go out of their way to use and encourage open source past the basics (even fdroid or Firefox not even getting to hardware and full software stacks) are treated as oddballs even by the tech community.

forgetfreeman 4y ago
Please enumerate the demonstrable advancements of society attributable to open source software. Edit: lots of downvotes, no credible responses. Guess y'all are stewing in your own cognitive dissonance?
- guhidalg 4y ago
  Ok so gcc and Linux don’t exist in your world.
  - eikenberry 4y ago
    Or the internet.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - forgetfreeman 4y ago
      Claiming the internet is a net advance for society is a pretty hard sell in the face of the dissolution of critical institutions, proliferation of mental heath issues, and hyper-concentration of wealth it has made possible.
      - _aavaa_ 4y ago
        These critical institutions you speak of, they were not here since the beginning of time nor will they be here till the end of time. Blaming “the internet” for their dissolution is implicit assuming that they should have continued in their current form (just to begin listing the claims that are hard to sell). Further, hyper-concentration of wealth is not something “made possible” by the internet. These problems existed before it and will continue existing. Because, if they are any problem at all, they are a social one.
        forgetfreeman 4y ago
        I'm sorry, I can't hear you over Google's near-monopoly over online search and ads and Amazon's deathgrip on merchandising. Could you speak up a little?
        _aavaa_ 4y ago
        Sure, let me say that again. Online search, online advertising, and merchandising are not "critical institutions". Nor have you provided any evidence that the companies Google and Amazon displaced deserved their role as incumbents. In fact. 2 of the 3 were literally non-existant before the internet was created, so the internet is obviously not causing their dissolution. Let me spell it out further: no matter how much people moan about it, Google does not have a monopoly on search in the way that the word "monopoly" is being used. There are several alternative (hello Kagi) and people are free and able to switch in less 30 seconds, they just don't want to and just don't care.
        throw10920 4y ago
        > Further, hyper-concentration of wealth is not something “made possible” by the internet It should be pretty obvious that, even if the internet did not create concentration of wealth, it has certainly enabled it to a far greater extent than was possible before, which was the point. It would be petty semantics to argue over whether this means that it enabled "hyper"-concentration.
  - forgetfreeman 4y ago
    Both great for IT guys, society writ large though? Really?
    - Loocid 4y ago
      Most of the world servers run Linux. Most of the worlds people would use at least one service running on those servers.
      - throw10920 4y ago
        If Linux didn't exist, those servers would be running another open-source OS. Or a proprietary one. Linux isn't special, and in fact, its design and popularity together have set OS research a few decades back.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      Android is a Linux.
      - pxc 4y ago
        Android is the worst Linux. On 99% of devices, it's TiVo-ized garbage. The history of Android is a story about the exploitation of 'open-source', not the incorporation of the benefits of software freedom into society.
  - throw10920 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you're on about. ICC/MSVC and Windows both exist. They're real compilers and OSes that millions of people use every day, and I've never seen anyone make the case that they're somehow not capable of doing things that their open-source competitors can.
- Vecr 4y ago
  The Human Genome Project heavily used open source software, as did the detection of the Higgs boson on the Large Hadron Collider at CERN. I'm not sure what your standard for advancing society is though, but the Internet probably helps investment banks and short sellers all over the world try to price in various current and future events and prevent massive and sudden price corrections that can have major impacts on real people's lives. For example your pension going bust.
  - throw10920 4y ago
    > The Human Genome Project heavily used open source software, as did the detection of the Higgs boson on the Large Hadron Collider at CERN. Do you think that those projects wouldn't have existed with proprietary software?
- throw10920 4y ago
  The open-source community significantly intersects with what is most accurately described as a "cult" dedicated to the irrational defense of open-source by any means necessary.
  - forgetfreeman 4y ago
    I am well aware. I was an open source developer for 12 years.
- illys 4y ago
  I am confortably working on hardware 10 to 15 years old. So do all the people of my family and the non-technical friends I help. This is possible with Linux and software resulting from the free and open source communities. With proprietary OS, all this hardware would be trashed. It would go in waste dumps or poor countries to be dismantled at high health and environment expense. And I would buy new hardware requiring more nature destruction with mining of rare materials. Finally this additional investment would decrease my financial capacity to do other things. So to make a long story short, the many (millions?) people preserving their hardware investment with open source software are saving environment, health and money to a large extend. And last but not least, they weaken software company monopolies, which can only be good for society as well.
mouse_ 4y ago
Embracing open source and freedom ideologically is very difficult. You can install Firefox, and still feel claustrophobic when you see paid-for default bookmarks and sponsored content everywhere. You can install an open source operating system, but when you learn your system is ACTUALLY running MINIX at the hardware level, which is connected to a 3g chipset listening for updates to do whatever the OEM wants, it all starts to feel like a losing battle. Let's say you're really determined to have freedom, so you buy a fancy new RISC-V single board computer. Fully open source architecture, bleeding edge stuff. You'll learn quickly the GPU relies on a closed source kernel that the OEM refuses to provide updates for after as little as a year or two, effectively acting as hardware DRM, when your device was supposed to be as free as it gets. There are many roadblocks in the way of being a free software/open source fanboy.

forgetfreeman 4y ago

Please enumerate the demonstrable advancements of society attributable to open source software. Edit: lots of downvotes, no credible responses. Guess y'all are stewing in your own cognitive dissonance?

guhidalg 4y ago
Ok so gcc and Linux don’t exist in your world.
- eikenberry 4y ago
  Or the internet.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - forgetfreeman 4y ago
    Claiming the internet is a net advance for society is a pretty hard sell in the face of the dissolution of critical institutions, proliferation of mental heath issues, and hyper-concentration of wealth it has made possible.
    - _aavaa_ 4y ago
      These critical institutions you speak of, they were not here since the beginning of time nor will they be here till the end of time. Blaming “the internet” for their dissolution is implicit assuming that they should have continued in their current form (just to begin listing the claims that are hard to sell). Further, hyper-concentration of wealth is not something “made possible” by the internet. These problems existed before it and will continue existing. Because, if they are any problem at all, they are a social one.
      - forgetfreeman 4y ago
        I'm sorry, I can't hear you over Google's near-monopoly over online search and ads and Amazon's deathgrip on merchandising. Could you speak up a little?
        _aavaa_ 4y ago
        Sure, let me say that again. Online search, online advertising, and merchandising are not "critical institutions". Nor have you provided any evidence that the companies Google and Amazon displaced deserved their role as incumbents. In fact. 2 of the 3 were literally non-existant before the internet was created, so the internet is obviously not causing their dissolution. Let me spell it out further: no matter how much people moan about it, Google does not have a monopoly on search in the way that the word "monopoly" is being used. There are several alternative (hello Kagi) and people are free and able to switch in less 30 seconds, they just don't want to and just don't care.
      - throw10920 4y ago
        > Further, hyper-concentration of wealth is not something “made possible” by the internet It should be pretty obvious that, even if the internet did not create concentration of wealth, it has certainly enabled it to a far greater extent than was possible before, which was the point. It would be petty semantics to argue over whether this means that it enabled "hyper"-concentration.
- forgetfreeman 4y ago
  Both great for IT guys, society writ large though? Really?
  - Loocid 4y ago
    Most of the world servers run Linux. Most of the worlds people would use at least one service running on those servers.
    - throw10920 4y ago
      If Linux didn't exist, those servers would be running another open-source OS. Or a proprietary one. Linux isn't special, and in fact, its design and popularity together have set OS research a few decades back.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Android is a Linux.
    - pxc 4y ago
      Android is the worst Linux. On 99% of devices, it's TiVo-ized garbage. The history of Android is a story about the exploitation of 'open-source', not the incorporation of the benefits of software freedom into society.
- throw10920 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you're on about. ICC/MSVC and Windows both exist. They're real compilers and OSes that millions of people use every day, and I've never seen anyone make the case that they're somehow not capable of doing things that their open-source competitors can.
Vecr 4y ago
The Human Genome Project heavily used open source software, as did the detection of the Higgs boson on the Large Hadron Collider at CERN. I'm not sure what your standard for advancing society is though, but the Internet probably helps investment banks and short sellers all over the world try to price in various current and future events and prevent massive and sudden price corrections that can have major impacts on real people's lives. For example your pension going bust.
- throw10920 4y ago
  > The Human Genome Project heavily used open source software, as did the detection of the Higgs boson on the Large Hadron Collider at CERN. Do you think that those projects wouldn't have existed with proprietary software?
throw10920 4y ago
The open-source community significantly intersects with what is most accurately described as a "cult" dedicated to the irrational defense of open-source by any means necessary.
- forgetfreeman 4y ago
  I am well aware. I was an open source developer for 12 years.
illys 4y ago
I am confortably working on hardware 10 to 15 years old. So do all the people of my family and the non-technical friends I help. This is possible with Linux and software resulting from the free and open source communities. With proprietary OS, all this hardware would be trashed. It would go in waste dumps or poor countries to be dismantled at high health and environment expense. And I would buy new hardware requiring more nature destruction with mining of rare materials. Finally this additional investment would decrease my financial capacity to do other things. So to make a long story short, the many (millions?) people preserving their hardware investment with open source software are saving environment, health and money to a large extend. And last but not least, they weaken software company monopolies, which can only be good for society as well.

mouse_ 4y ago

Embracing open source and freedom ideologically is very difficult. You can install Firefox, and still feel claustrophobic when you see paid-for default bookmarks and sponsored content everywhere. You can install an open source operating system, but when you learn your system is ACTUALLY running MINIX at the hardware level, which is connected to a 3g chipset listening for updates to do whatever the OEM wants, it all starts to feel like a losing battle. Let's say you're really determined to have freedom, so you buy a fancy new RISC-V single board computer. Fully open source architecture, bleeding edge stuff. You'll learn quickly the GPU relies on a closed source kernel that the OEM refuses to provide updates for after as little as a year or two, effectively acting as hardware DRM, when your device was supposed to be as free as it gets. There are many roadblocks in the way of being a free software/open source fanboy.