4 ms·

No, PyPy isn't fast enough for these workloads (again see my comment, I tried) v8 isn't fast enough either, and it's basically a Rube Goldberg machine maxed ou

by chubot 4y ago

No, PyPy isn't fast enough for these workloads (again see my comment, I tried) v8 isn't fast enough either, and it's basically a Rube Goldberg machine maxed out in code complexity right now. It probably 2M lines of code, with multiple interpreters and compilers. They're lucky if they can improve metrics 5% -- things aren't getting 100% faster With JITs, both JS and Python runtimes are still ~10x too slow, as opposed to ~100x too slow without them. They also offer you approximately zero control over memory, and as a result use ~10x more memory. This can certainly matter even for a tool running along aside your editor on a desktop

pjmlp 4y ago
I did not assert that PyPy is fast enough for anything. Naturally V8 isn't fast enough, I also haven't said that. What I said was that Python never had a proper JIT history, and Google doesn't care to improve V8 for nodejs workloads, so naturally it isn't fast enough. I also said that FOSS community is not in the position to make otherwise, hence why it is easier to switch to compiled languages instead, no one has the capacity to make top JIT infrastructure with late nights and long weeks, paid with Github stars.
- chubot 4y ago
  What I'm saying is that there's no amount of money that Google can spend to make v8 5x or 10x faster for these stateful, object- /pointer-rich workloads. It's not a matter of investment. The language is the bottleneck, not the runtime. It's better to change the language and get 100%-500% improvement, not eke out 5% from the runtime. That's trying squeeze blood out of a stone. "proper JIT history" -- this claim doesn't make sense.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    We are discussing here performance for CLI applications, not AAA game engines. As for the claim, it makes perfect sense, when PyPy never went beyond a research project largely ignored by the Python community during the last 20 years, while other attemtps never achived half of what JS, Lisp, Scheme, Smalltalk have done.

by chubot 4y ago

pjmlp 4y ago

I did not assert that PyPy is fast enough for anything. Naturally V8 isn't fast enough, I also haven't said that. What I said was that Python never had a proper JIT history, and Google doesn't care to improve V8 for nodejs workloads, so naturally it isn't fast enough. I also said that FOSS community is not in the position to make otherwise, hence why it is easier to switch to compiled languages instead, no one has the capacity to make top JIT infrastructure with late nights and long weeks, paid with Github stars.

chubot 4y ago
What I'm saying is that there's no amount of money that Google can spend to make v8 5x or 10x faster for these stateful, object- /pointer-rich workloads. It's not a matter of investment. The language is the bottleneck, not the runtime. It's better to change the language and get 100%-500% improvement, not eke out 5% from the runtime. That's trying squeeze blood out of a stone. "proper JIT history" -- this claim doesn't make sense.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  We are discussing here performance for CLI applications, not AAA game engines. As for the claim, it makes perfect sense, when PyPy never went beyond a research project largely ignored by the Python community during the last 20 years, while other attemtps never achived half of what JS, Lisp, Scheme, Smalltalk have done.