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>No, no its not. Its to show that you've learned the material. But it doesn't do that. It merely shows you were able to perform well in a contrived testing env

>No, no its not. Its to show that you've learned the material. But it doesn't do that. It merely shows you were able to perform well in a contrived testing environment that has little to do with how you'd actually approach problems in the "real world" (that is, everywhere but a test). >12-13 weeks is plenty long to learn the material for a course. A student is at a college to learn. It should be their top priority to learn the material during the course. I think you're missing the author's point here. Yes, a student is at college/university to learn. However, the job of the institution should be to teach, not to weed out students, and that's where the true failure is taking place. And again, nobody is always in full control of their life. Shit happens, as they say, and just two weeks of illness (or really any unforeseen circumstances) can cost you a whole semester. Some students need to juggle studies, work and getting enough sleep while pretty much having no life because of the horrendous costs of attending higher education (which is a whole other problem entirely). >As for "failure #3", lectures have been used for hundreds of years because they work. That's an appeal to tradition. They haven't been used because they work, but because there was no viable alternative. But now, we have such an alternative - video lectures and online courses. >He also seems to miss the fact that for science courses, you need labs. You cannot do chemistry labs online. You won't be able to do field work in biology by watching a video. That's true indeed. I don't think it's productive to attack universities as a whole, either. They serve a lot more purpose than just holding lectures. You can meet people in the same or adjacent fields as you, you can form connections, work in research (and maybe even stay there after graduation) and many other things. But that doesn't change the point of the article, which is that lectures as a teaching format suck when compared to the alternative. >You lose the overall atmosphere of a learning environment through online courses, and that is not something I'd want to give up. You'll have to excuse me for being a bit snarky now, but if by "atmosphere of a learning environment" you mean cramped lecture rooms, long and drawn-out lectures without much (if any) interaction with the lecturer with the overall process often being more of a hassle than anything else for all involved parties, then no, I don't think that's something worth clinging to because we've done it this way for the last thousand years.

yequalsx 15y ago
The data at my college shows that students who get an A or B in a math class have a very high probability of passing the next math class. Students who get a C in a math class have a much lower probability of passing the next math class. I think that at some level an A or B indicates something related to knowledge and capabilities. My personal experience is that tests are an effective method of determining who should proceed and who should not. It's not fair to other students and teachers if a student takes Calc II without knowing Calc I. Some mechanism is needed to weed out those who shouldn't move on. Lectures do work. They have been working for hundreds of years. This isn't an appeal to tradition. This is a statement about evidence that they work. Lectures work so effectively that people want to put them online so anyone can watch them. But guess what happens with students in online classes? My anecdotal experience is that they won't watch the lectures. They won't sit through a 20 minute lecture on how to solve quadratic equations. (Except a core group of good students.) The passing rate of students in online math courses at my college is lower than for the face-to-face courses.
- slowpoke 15y ago
  >The data at my college shows that students who get an A or B in a math class have a very high probability of passing the next math class. Students who get a C in a math class have a much lower probability of passing the next math class. But that's not a counterargument. Your simply restating your own point, which I disagree with. It's pretty obvious that someone who would score well in an artificial testing environment A would score well in such an environment B if B is a followup of A. That doesn't disprove the point that grades are a fundamentally flawed concept in education. >My personal experience is that tests are an effective method of determining who should proceed and who should not. Again, based on what? Conformance to a completely artificial testing environment? Again, tests have nothing to do with reality and are a flawed concept. If anything, they show if you can work under an extreme time constraint with limited resources available. Are we really basing success or failure in all of our education on this limited and arguably pretty unimportant skill-set? >Lectures do work. They have been working for hundreds of years. This isn't an appeal to tradition. This is a statement about evidence that they work. You're still ignoring the context, and that is that we have a better alternative to physical lectures now. Let me present an analogy: "Books work. They have been working for hundreds of years. This is a factual statement about evidence that they work." While principally true, that doesn't change the fact that printed letters on dead trees are no longer a viable model of distributing knowledge. It's an appeal to tradition because you ignore the context at hand. Your only argument is "we've always done it that way, therefore it must be right, why change it?". >Lectures work so effectively that people want to put them online so anyone can watch them. What are you trying to argue with this? Yes, online lectures are better than traditional lectures. To extend on the book analogy, while it's fundamentally still the same as reading a physical book (you're parsing words), an electronic representation of text is in every way superior to a printed book. The same holds true for online lectures. >They won't sit through a 20 minute lecture on how to solve quadratic equations. (Except a core group of good students.) Let me present you with my anecdotal experience as a student myself: Next to no one but a core group of good students will sit through any physical lecture unless it's absolutely mandatory to attend, either. As I've put it in another comment, if you're not at the university because you want to learn, what the fuck are you doing at the university?

yequalsx 15y ago

The data at my college shows that students who get an A or B in a math class have a very high probability of passing the next math class. Students who get a C in a math class have a much lower probability of passing the next math class. I think that at some level an A or B indicates something related to knowledge and capabilities. My personal experience is that tests are an effective method of determining who should proceed and who should not. It's not fair to other students and teachers if a student takes Calc II without knowing Calc I. Some mechanism is needed to weed out those who shouldn't move on. Lectures do work. They have been working for hundreds of years. This isn't an appeal to tradition. This is a statement about evidence that they work. Lectures work so effectively that people want to put them online so anyone can watch them. But guess what happens with students in online classes? My anecdotal experience is that they won't watch the lectures. They won't sit through a 20 minute lecture on how to solve quadratic equations. (Except a core group of good students.) The passing rate of students in online math courses at my college is lower than for the face-to-face courses.

slowpoke 15y ago
>The data at my college shows that students who get an A or B in a math class have a very high probability of passing the next math class. Students who get a C in a math class have a much lower probability of passing the next math class. But that's not a counterargument. Your simply restating your own point, which I disagree with. It's pretty obvious that someone who would score well in an artificial testing environment A would score well in such an environment B if B is a followup of A. That doesn't disprove the point that grades are a fundamentally flawed concept in education. >My personal experience is that tests are an effective method of determining who should proceed and who should not. Again, based on what? Conformance to a completely artificial testing environment? Again, tests have nothing to do with reality and are a flawed concept. If anything, they show if you can work under an extreme time constraint with limited resources available. Are we really basing success or failure in all of our education on this limited and arguably pretty unimportant skill-set? >Lectures do work. They have been working for hundreds of years. This isn't an appeal to tradition. This is a statement about evidence that they work. You're still ignoring the context, and that is that we have a better alternative to physical lectures now. Let me present an analogy: "Books work. They have been working for hundreds of years. This is a factual statement about evidence that they work." While principally true, that doesn't change the fact that printed letters on dead trees are no longer a viable model of distributing knowledge. It's an appeal to tradition because you ignore the context at hand. Your only argument is "we've always done it that way, therefore it must be right, why change it?". >Lectures work so effectively that people want to put them online so anyone can watch them. What are you trying to argue with this? Yes, online lectures are better than traditional lectures. To extend on the book analogy, while it's fundamentally still the same as reading a physical book (you're parsing words), an electronic representation of text is in every way superior to a printed book. The same holds true for online lectures. >They won't sit through a 20 minute lecture on how to solve quadratic equations. (Except a core group of good students.) Let me present you with my anecdotal experience as a student myself: Next to no one but a core group of good students will sit through any physical lecture unless it's absolutely mandatory to attend, either. As I've put it in another comment, if you're not at the university because you want to learn, what the fuck are you doing at the university?