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Do you just have a gut feeling that they are being abused? I thought the crowd that didn't like working there, left.

papito 4y ago
I guess if you are on a visa. There are some "office heroes" there for sure, and they will probably realize years later that they were abused.
- MrOwnPut 4y ago
  So they don't realize now they are being abused even though they have first hand experience, but you realize they are being abused because you have what insight exactly? In other words, what exactly do you think the people working there will "realize years later"? Could you specifically list the abuses being done to these engineers that they are unaware of?
  - thebradbain 4y ago
    Usually people choose to stay in abusive situations because they don’t believe they’re being abused, or have convinced themselves they have no better option. That doesn’t change the fact the environment is still abusive. There’s a whole swaths of science and research behind this. It’s why domestic violence can continue for years unknown to anyone, even from friends, until it’s not. OP isn’t saying they’re being abused as a fact, but if they are — at a workplace that seems as objectively toxic as Twitter right now — many who are still there won’t likely realize they were until afterwards.
    - MrOwnPut 4y ago
      > Usually people choose to stay in abusive situations because they don’t believe they’re being abused I simply asked OP to list the abuses they think the engineers are unaware of. > OP isn’t saying they’re being abused as a fact, OP literally said "It would feel amazing after this much abuse"
      - thebradbain 4y ago
        My bad, I meant OP in regards to whom you directly responded to (emphasis mine) > they will _probably realize_ years later that they were abused.
        MrOwnPut 4y ago
        Yes that's the same person I quoted, "papito". Their "probably" was about them probably realizing, not probably being abused. OP was absolute in their accusation of abuse in his above post that I quoted. That's why I asked them for specific examples.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  > It would feel amazing after this much abuse. This much abuse. What abuse? Can you tell us more in detail?
  - supriyo-biswas 4y ago
    They make for a shitty work environment for everyone - anyone who wants to set up healthy boundaries between work and life would be let go, thus eventually reducing worker rights.
    - systemvoltage 4y ago
      No one is in shackles. They make like $300k in compensation. It's a free country, workers can go wherever they want. Free labor market. What if, just what if, the workers actually like working hard and making their lives better? That seems to never enter the conversation here. Honestly, the culture on HN makes workers like me more resentful. It's 100% negative, there is absolutely 0% optimism in these threads. Not even one comment here (or elsewhere on HN).
      - smcl 4y ago
        They all make $300k and can all go wherever they want and do whatever they want? Are you certain that is the case? > ... like working hard and making their lives better It's true that work can be very rewarding - "Find a job you enjoy doing, and you will never have to work a day in your life" and all that. Plus who doesn't like making their lives better? I guess it is up to the reader to decide whether a job in Musk-era Twitter is one of those jobs, and whether working for the new "hardcore" Twitter would make your life better. I can only speak for myself but if I worked somewhere and I saw that after a takeover: - half of my colleagues got fired one day - some people occasionally get fired for on-the-spot violations like answering a CEO's question - the company went from nearly-profitable to incredibly unprofitable (let’s even ignore how it got that way) - the company stopped paying some bills and were kicked out of some offices and services - the owner-and-CEO had become an extremely ... divisive figure, shall we say - the owner-and-CEO declares that the existing product is brittle and broken and needs a ground-up "2.0" rewrite (a second system so to speak...) ... then I wouldn't see this as some wonderful opportunity, I'd see it as my workplace being turned into a plaything for a tempestuous billionaire who might not be as competent as he wants us to believe. And if I was a wealthy and financially-secure US permanent resident looking at a buoyant jobs market then I'd probably leave, take a bit of a breather then start looking for a new job at a different company. However if any one of those things didn't hold (maybe I'm an H1B visa holder, maybe I am young and don't have much savings or experience, maybe the job market kinda sucks, maybe I have am the sole earner in my family) I'd be in a much different and more depressing situation - maybe not literally "in shackles" but certainly not as free as you are suggesting.
deleted 4y ago
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0xDEF 4y ago
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sigmar 4y ago
Did you see the photo of the employee sleeping on the floor? I'd link it but twitter is down.
- piqi 4y ago
  She was fired not long after that all-nighter.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Did you see the photo of the employee sleeping on the floor? I’ve done this. I had lots of fun—everyone, from the CEO down, was crunching—and became financially independent after it. It’s usually a sign of under-resourcing. But almost every start-up experiencing unexpected growth should be ready for it. It’s unusual at Twitter’s scale, but closed to mismanagement than abuse.
  - runarberg 4y ago
    Please don’t do that. You deserve better as a worker. If a company is unable to function without infringing on the free time of their workers, that company should not exist.
    - MrOwnPut 4y ago
      I believe GP said he had fun. People should be allowed to work how they want to, they have the freedom (especially in this industry) to go elsewhere. I've pulled late nights, they bought us pizza and gave us a half day later. Sometimes you have to put in work during critical times. It's certainly not construction work anyway, people are kinda soft here sometimes.
      - runarberg 4y ago
        > People should be allowed to work how they want to I disagree. There is a race to the bottom and a tragedy of the commons. A company could easily exploit this by gamifying the work and hiring workers with addictive tendencies. Most national labor laws and labor contracts set a maximum number of daily and weekly working hours for a reason. Workplace safety is only one of those reasons.
tambourine_man 4y ago
There's plenty of evidence on Twitter, from Musk firing engineers who confront him with straight technical questions, to Musk demanding ridiculous work hours as if it's a sign of strength or loyalty.
brundolf 4y ago
I can say from experience it's possible to be in an abusive work environment and not decide to quit (through some combination of unawareness of how bad things are, fear of having given up, not wanting to re-enter the job market, etc) It doesn't make sense from the outside (or in hindsight), but it happens

I guess if you are on a visa. There are some "office heroes" there for sure, and they will probably realize years later that they were abused.

MrOwnPut 4y ago
So they don't realize now they are being abused even though they have first hand experience, but you realize they are being abused because you have what insight exactly? In other words, what exactly do you think the people working there will "realize years later"? Could you specifically list the abuses being done to these engineers that they are unaware of?
- thebradbain 4y ago
  Usually people choose to stay in abusive situations because they don’t believe they’re being abused, or have convinced themselves they have no better option. That doesn’t change the fact the environment is still abusive. There’s a whole swaths of science and research behind this. It’s why domestic violence can continue for years unknown to anyone, even from friends, until it’s not. OP isn’t saying they’re being abused as a fact, but if they are — at a workplace that seems as objectively toxic as Twitter right now — many who are still there won’t likely realize they were until afterwards.
  - MrOwnPut 4y ago
    > Usually people choose to stay in abusive situations because they don’t believe they’re being abused I simply asked OP to list the abuses they think the engineers are unaware of. > OP isn’t saying they’re being abused as a fact, OP literally said "It would feel amazing after this much abuse"
    - thebradbain 4y ago
      My bad, I meant OP in regards to whom you directly responded to (emphasis mine) > they will _probably realize_ years later that they were abused.
      - MrOwnPut 4y ago
        Yes that's the same person I quoted, "papito". Their "probably" was about them probably realizing, not probably being abused. OP was absolute in their accusation of abuse in his above post that I quoted. That's why I asked them for specific examples.
systemvoltage 4y ago
> It would feel amazing after this much abuse. This much abuse. What abuse? Can you tell us more in detail?
- supriyo-biswas 4y ago
  They make for a shitty work environment for everyone - anyone who wants to set up healthy boundaries between work and life would be let go, thus eventually reducing worker rights.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    No one is in shackles. They make like $300k in compensation. It's a free country, workers can go wherever they want. Free labor market. What if, just what if, the workers actually like working hard and making their lives better? That seems to never enter the conversation here. Honestly, the culture on HN makes workers like me more resentful. It's 100% negative, there is absolutely 0% optimism in these threads. Not even one comment here (or elsewhere on HN).
    - smcl 4y ago
      They all make $300k and can all go wherever they want and do whatever they want? Are you certain that is the case? > ... like working hard and making their lives better It's true that work can be very rewarding - "Find a job you enjoy doing, and you will never have to work a day in your life" and all that. Plus who doesn't like making their lives better? I guess it is up to the reader to decide whether a job in Musk-era Twitter is one of those jobs, and whether working for the new "hardcore" Twitter would make your life better. I can only speak for myself but if I worked somewhere and I saw that after a takeover: - half of my colleagues got fired one day - some people occasionally get fired for on-the-spot violations like answering a CEO's question - the company went from nearly-profitable to incredibly unprofitable (let’s even ignore how it got that way) - the company stopped paying some bills and were kicked out of some offices and services - the owner-and-CEO had become an extremely ... divisive figure, shall we say - the owner-and-CEO declares that the existing product is brittle and broken and needs a ground-up "2.0" rewrite (a second system so to speak...) ... then I wouldn't see this as some wonderful opportunity, I'd see it as my workplace being turned into a plaything for a tempestuous billionaire who might not be as competent as he wants us to believe. And if I was a wealthy and financially-secure US permanent resident looking at a buoyant jobs market then I'd probably leave, take a bit of a breather then start looking for a new job at a different company. However if any one of those things didn't hold (maybe I'm an H1B visa holder, maybe I am young and don't have much savings or experience, maybe the job market kinda sucks, maybe I have am the sole earner in my family) I'd be in a much different and more depressing situation - maybe not literally "in shackles" but certainly not as free as you are suggesting.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

0xDEF 4y ago

[flagged]

sigmar 4y ago

Did you see the photo of the employee sleeping on the floor? I'd link it but twitter is down.

piqi 4y ago
She was fired not long after that all-nighter.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Did you see the photo of the employee sleeping on the floor? I’ve done this. I had lots of fun—everyone, from the CEO down, was crunching—and became financially independent after it. It’s usually a sign of under-resourcing. But almost every start-up experiencing unexpected growth should be ready for it. It’s unusual at Twitter’s scale, but closed to mismanagement than abuse.
- runarberg 4y ago
  Please don’t do that. You deserve better as a worker. If a company is unable to function without infringing on the free time of their workers, that company should not exist.
  - MrOwnPut 4y ago
    I believe GP said he had fun. People should be allowed to work how they want to, they have the freedom (especially in this industry) to go elsewhere. I've pulled late nights, they bought us pizza and gave us a half day later. Sometimes you have to put in work during critical times. It's certainly not construction work anyway, people are kinda soft here sometimes.
    - runarberg 4y ago
      > People should be allowed to work how they want to I disagree. There is a race to the bottom and a tragedy of the commons. A company could easily exploit this by gamifying the work and hiring workers with addictive tendencies. Most national labor laws and labor contracts set a maximum number of daily and weekly working hours for a reason. Workplace safety is only one of those reasons.

tambourine_man 4y ago

There's plenty of evidence on Twitter, from Musk firing engineers who confront him with straight technical questions, to Musk demanding ridiculous work hours as if it's a sign of strength or loyalty.

brundolf 4y ago

I can say from experience it's possible to be in an abusive work environment and not decide to quit (through some combination of unawareness of how bad things are, fear of having given up, not wanting to re-enter the job market, etc) It doesn't make sense from the outside (or in hindsight), but it happens