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OpenTTD (Transport Tycoon Deluxe being the original), is my preferred traffic simulation game. Once you can control all routes and trains, you can never go bac

OpenTTD (Transport Tycoon Deluxe being the original), is my preferred traffic simulation game. Once you can control all routes and trains, you can never go back! You get used to the control, the timetables, the organization that's possible.

orangepurple 4y ago
OpenTTD sadly does not simulate passengers as unique agents. Transportation demand can be very unidirectional and not make logical sense.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  Have you not tried the CargoDist button? It was added maybe 5 years ago, but as an Open source project, advertising for this feature is pretty bad. It turns passengers/mail into agents who will perform 2 or 3 or more hops to reach their destination.
  - zaphoyd 4y ago
    Seconding this, if you dropped OpenTTD because of the simplistic passenger/cargo routing (i.e. take any cargo to any place and pay is only based on how far you took it) then definitely give the CargoDist option a try. Every passenger (or mail or manufactured good) has a unique destination in your system that you need to get it to. They are roughly balanced based on demand (two stations in large cities will generate a lot of traffic between them, but a small town will only generate a small amount of traffic to and from a large city). It makes the transport routing game way more interesting and more like the routing of passengers in more traditional Sim City type games.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      Beyond just that, the ability for passengers to "route" themselves (Take airplane from CityA -> CityB, then rail from CityB -> CityC, then bus from CityC to CityD... and back) is the bigger, more important effect of the CargoDist feature. That means you can form "Hub and Spokes" for passenger traffic, and the individual passengers are smart enough to figure out how to route themselves to their ultimate destinations. ------------ Its the most "realistic feeling" traffic mod I've found of any of these games, honestly. Even Cities Skylines seems rather basic in comparison. ----------- I play on Passengers/Mail as CargoDist, and then all other traffic (Coal, Wood, Cargo, Oil, etc. etc.) as default / original rules. I also set the "symmetry" of CargoDist to 80%. That is, 20% of traffic is one-way, which seems to be correct in my opinion? I think it defaults to 100%, but it doesn't make sense for _ALL_ traffic to be bidirectional (ie: for all agents to make a return trip each time). EDIT: I do think that a "big mod" to OpenTTD under a new name would be beneficial to the project. Something that redefines OpenTTD's sizes (each square is supposed to be a square km, but it doesn't "feel" like it. Roads aren't a square km wide after all...). I think that if each square were 10m x 10m nominal, and then for all other parts of the game to be redesigned off of that (scaling up docks, rail depos, cities, etc. etc. as appropriate to this new size), would be really all that OpenTTD needs. Plus CargoDist Passengers/Mail by default.
- tsgagnon 4y ago
  OpenTTD sadly does not simulate passengers as unique agents. Transportation demand can be very unidirectional and not make logical sense. Personally this isn't really a negative. I've found that I only care about "agents" when the scale of the game focuses on caring about individual units. Once you get beyond that, I don't think the simulation necessarily is more interesting just because it uses unique agents. And conversely, I've never thought while playing SC4 or similar game that "This game would be better if it simulated all citizens as unique units".
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    A number of games simulates unique agents: Tropico, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Theme Hospital, Two Point Hospital, Ceasar 3 / Cleopatra etc. etc. Its a different game entirely compared to games like Sim City or City Skylines. I've noticed that these "individual agents" games are very "unstable". They're only designed for a limited number of agents before everything goes to crap. As such, "individual agent" games tend to be scenarios that you play for a short time, rather than trying to play for months on the same map (like Sim City or City Skylines or OpenTTD can be). --------- Tropico Boom/Busts grow too variable and uncontrollable. You'll eventually have an island-wide boom/bust collapse that probably triggers the instant-loss endgame (aka: Soviets and/or USA invades). Ceasar 3 / Cleopatra are reasonably stable, but definitely a smaller map and designed for scenario play instead.
wardedVibe 4y ago
Openttd is a great logistics simulator, but it's not really a traffic simulator. Traffic by it's nature requires a lot of independent agents deciding how to use a shared resource, and the resulting conflicts, like Braess' paradox[0]. As far as I've seen, the only game that does well at this is Cities Skylines. OpenTTD on the other hand is my favorite part of factorio. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox?wprov=sfla1
- dragontamer 4y ago
  I've personally found it pretty easy to get around. In particular, just build long stretches of roads without any intersections. Just "s-curve" like a snake, especially around industrial centers (all traffic originates in industry, and don't seem to "return" to industry in Cities Skylines). Maximize the distance of these singular roads, and build out your road system like a computer-science definition of a tree. Its not very realistic, but it solves more or less all the issues of Cities Skylines. (Or perhaps it is realistic, and matches the behavior of neighborhood planners in the real world). In contrast, OpenTTD encourages hub/spoke model and recycling of centers. I think its sizes are off but the overall gameplay loop is correct here. -------- OpenTTD's "traffic" is pretty dumb, but its infinite. As long as you've got high station ratings, the station will expand and traffic will increase. It doesn't matter what design you have, the traffic increases until you can no longer support it. So OpenTTD is somewhat self balancing. The stronger a player you are, the more traffic you generate. The weaker a player you are, the less traffic you generate.
  - wardedVibe 4y ago
    > all traffic originates in industry, and don't seem to "return" to industry in Cities Skylines It absolutely does come back? I've had major traffic headaches from returning trucks. If I don't build rail for trucks, my cities are usually screwed over by that. > Maximize the distance of these singular roads, and build out your road system like a computer-science definition of a tree. Its not very realistic, but it solves more or less all the issues of Cities Skylines. (Or perhaps it is realistic, and matches the behavior of neighborhood planners in the real world). Trees create massive chokepoints when traveling within the city, so I don't think its likely to work in a large city (though if you squint, road hierarchy is somewhat tree-like, I suppose, though with more intra-branch connections). I suspect you simply haven't gotten cities big enough to actually have traffic, especially if you think most traffic is trucks. It does take a bit for personal car traffic to be heavy enough to be a problem. The unique thing about car traffic vs station demand is that the overall speed depends on the quantity of cars on the road, with maximal throughput occurring before a fully occupied road. That's how you get weird effects like Braess paradox. OpenTTD is much better at simulating public transit systems, Cities Skylines is better at simulating traffic.

orangepurple 4y ago

OpenTTD sadly does not simulate passengers as unique agents. Transportation demand can be very unidirectional and not make logical sense.

dragontamer 4y ago
Have you not tried the CargoDist button? It was added maybe 5 years ago, but as an Open source project, advertising for this feature is pretty bad. It turns passengers/mail into agents who will perform 2 or 3 or more hops to reach their destination.
- zaphoyd 4y ago
  Seconding this, if you dropped OpenTTD because of the simplistic passenger/cargo routing (i.e. take any cargo to any place and pay is only based on how far you took it) then definitely give the CargoDist option a try. Every passenger (or mail or manufactured good) has a unique destination in your system that you need to get it to. They are roughly balanced based on demand (two stations in large cities will generate a lot of traffic between them, but a small town will only generate a small amount of traffic to and from a large city). It makes the transport routing game way more interesting and more like the routing of passengers in more traditional Sim City type games.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    Beyond just that, the ability for passengers to "route" themselves (Take airplane from CityA -> CityB, then rail from CityB -> CityC, then bus from CityC to CityD... and back) is the bigger, more important effect of the CargoDist feature. That means you can form "Hub and Spokes" for passenger traffic, and the individual passengers are smart enough to figure out how to route themselves to their ultimate destinations. ------------ Its the most "realistic feeling" traffic mod I've found of any of these games, honestly. Even Cities Skylines seems rather basic in comparison. ----------- I play on Passengers/Mail as CargoDist, and then all other traffic (Coal, Wood, Cargo, Oil, etc. etc.) as default / original rules. I also set the "symmetry" of CargoDist to 80%. That is, 20% of traffic is one-way, which seems to be correct in my opinion? I think it defaults to 100%, but it doesn't make sense for _ALL_ traffic to be bidirectional (ie: for all agents to make a return trip each time). EDIT: I do think that a "big mod" to OpenTTD under a new name would be beneficial to the project. Something that redefines OpenTTD's sizes (each square is supposed to be a square km, but it doesn't "feel" like it. Roads aren't a square km wide after all...). I think that if each square were 10m x 10m nominal, and then for all other parts of the game to be redesigned off of that (scaling up docks, rail depos, cities, etc. etc. as appropriate to this new size), would be really all that OpenTTD needs. Plus CargoDist Passengers/Mail by default.
tsgagnon 4y ago
OpenTTD sadly does not simulate passengers as unique agents. Transportation demand can be very unidirectional and not make logical sense. Personally this isn't really a negative. I've found that I only care about "agents" when the scale of the game focuses on caring about individual units. Once you get beyond that, I don't think the simulation necessarily is more interesting just because it uses unique agents. And conversely, I've never thought while playing SC4 or similar game that "This game would be better if it simulated all citizens as unique units".
- dragontamer 4y ago
  A number of games simulates unique agents: Tropico, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Theme Hospital, Two Point Hospital, Ceasar 3 / Cleopatra etc. etc. Its a different game entirely compared to games like Sim City or City Skylines. I've noticed that these "individual agents" games are very "unstable". They're only designed for a limited number of agents before everything goes to crap. As such, "individual agent" games tend to be scenarios that you play for a short time, rather than trying to play for months on the same map (like Sim City or City Skylines or OpenTTD can be). --------- Tropico Boom/Busts grow too variable and uncontrollable. You'll eventually have an island-wide boom/bust collapse that probably triggers the instant-loss endgame (aka: Soviets and/or USA invades). Ceasar 3 / Cleopatra are reasonably stable, but definitely a smaller map and designed for scenario play instead.

wardedVibe 4y ago

Openttd is a great logistics simulator, but it's not really a traffic simulator. Traffic by it's nature requires a lot of independent agents deciding how to use a shared resource, and the resulting conflicts, like Braess' paradox[0]. As far as I've seen, the only game that does well at this is Cities Skylines. OpenTTD on the other hand is my favorite part of factorio. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox?wprov=sfla1

dragontamer 4y ago
I've personally found it pretty easy to get around. In particular, just build long stretches of roads without any intersections. Just "s-curve" like a snake, especially around industrial centers (all traffic originates in industry, and don't seem to "return" to industry in Cities Skylines). Maximize the distance of these singular roads, and build out your road system like a computer-science definition of a tree. Its not very realistic, but it solves more or less all the issues of Cities Skylines. (Or perhaps it is realistic, and matches the behavior of neighborhood planners in the real world). In contrast, OpenTTD encourages hub/spoke model and recycling of centers. I think its sizes are off but the overall gameplay loop is correct here. -------- OpenTTD's "traffic" is pretty dumb, but its infinite. As long as you've got high station ratings, the station will expand and traffic will increase. It doesn't matter what design you have, the traffic increases until you can no longer support it. So OpenTTD is somewhat self balancing. The stronger a player you are, the more traffic you generate. The weaker a player you are, the less traffic you generate.
- wardedVibe 4y ago
  > all traffic originates in industry, and don't seem to "return" to industry in Cities Skylines It absolutely does come back? I've had major traffic headaches from returning trucks. If I don't build rail for trucks, my cities are usually screwed over by that. > Maximize the distance of these singular roads, and build out your road system like a computer-science definition of a tree. Its not very realistic, but it solves more or less all the issues of Cities Skylines. (Or perhaps it is realistic, and matches the behavior of neighborhood planners in the real world). Trees create massive chokepoints when traveling within the city, so I don't think its likely to work in a large city (though if you squint, road hierarchy is somewhat tree-like, I suppose, though with more intra-branch connections). I suspect you simply haven't gotten cities big enough to actually have traffic, especially if you think most traffic is trucks. It does take a bit for personal car traffic to be heavy enough to be a problem. The unique thing about car traffic vs station demand is that the overall speed depends on the quantity of cars on the road, with maximal throughput occurring before a fully occupied road. That's how you get weird effects like Braess paradox. OpenTTD is much better at simulating public transit systems, Cities Skylines is better at simulating traffic.