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You can blame detergent regulations for this. About a decade or so back phosphates were banned from detergents. The problem is that was the thing that made them
by krisroadruck 4y ago
You can blame detergent regulations for this. About a decade or so back phosphates were banned from detergents. The problem is that was the thing that made them work really well. In order to compensate for less effective detergents, cycle times have gotten longer.
Phosphate detergents are still available in commercial soaps, but I don't recommend skirting the regs here as they had some solid reasoning (algae blooms). Instead you can get away with shorter cycles by doing 2 things.
First - run your tap until the water is hot before starting the cycle, and second, use a booster powder instead of only using a pod or the main detergent door. These 2 things will get significantly more gunk off your food during that first rinse phase. As a result you may be able to get away with the "quick" cycle.
- shellfishgene 4y agoI think the long cycles are more related to energy efficiency regulations, most dishwashers default to a 3h 'eco' cycle with 50 degC, but also have a 1h 65 degC cycle. The hot water tip does not apply in most parts of the world I think as the heating is done in the dishwasher (hence the temperature settings).
- krisroadruck 4y agoI wish HN had a forum signature like function so I could just put a "all of my comments written through the lens of living in the United States". Most US dishwashers require you to hook up to hot water supply line. Problem is since they only use a gallon or two of water, if you don't run the tap first you are very likely feeding it lukewarm water. There are indeed heating elements but they don't get the water up to temp immediately - so starting things off already hot tends to help.
- bradleyjg 4y agoAren’t phosphates a critical component of fertilizer? I’d think that’d be a far larger source of runoff than dishwashers.
- krisroadruck 4y agoYou only throw fertilizer down on the lawn a couple times a year if at all and of course most of it is taken up by the plants you are feeding it to, whereas most people wash their dishes at least once a day and all of that water ends up down the drain.
- bradleyjg 4y agoWhat about industrial agriculture?
- krisroadruck 4y agoThat's a whole other animal. I mean why is California always dealing with water shortages but still growing almonds? My comments here are talking about residential stuff. I think I mentioned above that commercial detergents also still have phosphates. The whole 2 sets of rules thing is pretty common in the US shrug
- bradleyjg 4y agoWell but this is my point. I don’t know the ratios resident/industrial for phosphates, it was an honest question. But for water, I do know the numbers. Indoor residential use isn’t even a rounding error. So why are Californians taking crappy showers with low flow showers when it doesn’t even make any difference? If we really want to solve these problems and not just feel good about ourselves we should have a different set of policies.
- krisroadruck 4y agoI think we are kind of on the same side of this particular argument :-)
- jcampbell1 4y agoRemoving phosphates from dishwasher detergent was stupid because phosphates are measured in the discharge water from the waste treatment plants where it is regulated, and they can be dealt with chemically. All removing phosphates did was save a tiny amount of money on water treatment. Zero effect on the environment. Total greenwashing like plastic wish-cycling. If you want zero effort spotless dishes, just mix STPP in a 1:4 ratio with cheap powdered detergent. https://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Tripolyphosphate-Super-Cleans-Grade/dp/B01JDX5ASQ/ https://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Tripolyphosphate-Super-Cleans-...
- bick_nyers 4y agoDishwashers contain a heating element no? Not sure if booster powder is a specific product but yeah detergent on the little lip of the main detergent door is a significant help. For those interested, here is a wonderful 30min deep dive by none other than Technology Connections about dishwashers and detergent usage: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04 https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04
- mgdlbp 4y agoFunnily, if you ask around outside America, you'll get the opposite advice: a cold water connection gives better cleaning, because starch and protein do not coagulate in the initial rinse[0]. I suppose conventional wisdom only serves the status quo. Which effect is actually greater? Have yet to find a scientific test. [0] Compare what you find with dishwasher hot water site:reddit.com dishwasher hot water site:forums.whirlpool.net.au spülmaschine warmwasser forum PS: dishwashers with condensation drying cool the tub with water for the next run stored in a tank beside it. This is probably why European brands have a reputation of not drying in the US.
- sokoloff 4y agoMy mid-range Bosch dries the dishes just fine. If I unload it right at the end of the cycle, they’re slightly uncomfortably hot.
- ROTMetro 4y agoI love how you just gloss over 'solid reasoning' and 'still available in commercial soaps'. If it's bad enough to be taken out of residential use it should be taken out of commercial use. There should not be separate classes of what people are allowed to do in America. Things like this previously drove me to be an a*hole libertarian out of frustration.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]