5 ms·

I am really tired of how bad Raspberry Pi are. It is basically overpriced hobby board. I would not recommend building any sort of industrial solution on top.

I am really tired of how bad Raspberry Pi are. It is basically overpriced hobby board. I would not recommend building any sort of industrial solution on top. USB stack uses a lot of CPU, a lot hardware is missing and is software emulated. Some USB 1.1 keyboards do not work at all (2.0 are fine). Constant issues with power hungry peripherals. Unstable USB connections. WiFi has tiny antenna and is prone to interference... Software "support" is limited to some strange Debian version. Video playback acceleration works, but good luck dealing with outdated packages. I tried to use Pi for router, and included NetworkManager could not even handle WPA2 (only WPA1). No hardware acceleration for encryption, goodbye disk encryption or SSH... And it is bloody expensive, for 160 euro (4GB, PI 4), I can get much better x86 mini computer, that runs any mainstream distro, has way more stable hardware, and comparable power consumption. Pi 4 B has Broadcom BCM2711 CPU that is 28 nm...

hdhrufjdi 4y ago
> And it is bloody expensive, for 160 euro (4GB, PI 4), I can get much better x86 mini computer, Which one? Is it at least as power efficient idling and on full load? PS: PIs are usually a lot cheaper. You get 8gb for half the price usually. But it seems like you'd have to wait until later this year for such prices
- t344344 4y ago
  Intel NUC Kit NUC7CJYHN Barebone (Celeron Dual Core-J4005) barebone is sold for 112 euro. Add RAM and SSD... > PS: PIs are usually a lot cheaper. No they are not. Maybe a few years ago. But PIs use obsolete processor, with limited manufacturing capacity. I do not believe they will get any cheaper any time soon.
  - hdhrufjdi 4y ago
    Yes, they are: https://geizhals.de/raspberry-pi-4-modell-b-a2301761.html https://geizhals.de/raspberry-pi-4-modell-b-a2301761.html 75€ until the end of 2021. Now 86€ as soon as there are new PIs available, note the 8gb model: https://www.berrybase.de/en/raspberry-pi-4-computer-modell-b-8gb-ram https://www.berrybase.de/en/raspberry-pi-4-computer-modell-b... New supply later this year: https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/supply-chain-update-its-good-news/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/supply-chain-update-its-goo...
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    That's a barebone kit without HDD or RAM... (so stack an extra 100 bucks on there, and if you're paying 100 for a pi, it already includes an SD card for storage). So no, it's WAY more expensive. Not to mention you're going to be looking at quite a bit of fiddling to get any sort of linux distro playing nicely on it, so from a tooling side, costs will be much higher. It's also literally 5 times bigger than a pi in a standard enclosure, so enclosure costs and space costs. Plus, it idles at the same power (~10 watts) that the pi pulls during max load. It maxes out at ~70 watts draw. 10 watts over 5 years = $35. 70 watts over 5 years = $250. Plus - I refuse to touch celeron with a 20ft pole. They're consistently one of the worst performing processors I've ever had the displeasure of using. You call the pi's hardware old, but the celeron in the model you linked is 5+ years old now, and it's the shittiest of the shitty models that intel sells. You can hate on the pi all you want - I tend to agree, they're a bit overpriced for what you get at the best of times, and when they're both expensive and hard to get... alternatives are a great option. But that hideous thing is not the alternative you should be suggesting.
    - hdhrufjdi 4y ago
      Thanks for the additional info
    - t344344 4y ago
      8 GB DDR4 is 20 euro. Another 20 for basic SSD. Raspberry PI I found does not have a case, no CPU heatsink, no power supply, no SD card... And running system out of writeable SD card is another joke! Not sure how I would "fiddle" with installing Linux distro. There is nothing out of spec, very common intel hardware. With PI3 and Raspbian, my keyboard did not work, because Pi does not support USB 1.1 correctly! This system idles around 5 watts, depending on peripherals. Max consumption for PI4 is 15 watts. Celeron in this system is a good CPU for small servers. Look at Serve The Home reviews. But main reason are peripherals, you get Intel chipset, Intel network card, Intel USB and so on. You do not have to deal with shitty chinese chipset from TVs! It does not even implement spec correctly! Initial revision of PI4 would not even power up, because most basic USBC power delivery (single resistor) was botched!
tecleandor 4y ago
Well, in fact that's not the price for an RPi 4 4G, that I think it's around 70-80. But the low stock is used by some people to list insane prices. Also, NetworkManager supports even WPA3 as a client, but I don't think it's the best option for building a router. It's better suited for a regular client. Anyway, if you were building a router in a small board like the RPi4, I'd recommend you to use OpenWRT instead of Debian. Also, if you want a "more standard" distro, just use Armbian. It's just plain Debian with ARM support. Yes, the RPi is scarce, expensive and not super powerful, but also its target is not being a wireless router at all: only one interface, no external antennas... It's the wrong board for that. Get a GL.iNET board with OpenWRT or a x86 multi interface miniPC for that.
- t344344 4y ago
  > low stock is used by some people to list insane prices Another reason not to use it! > NetworkManager supports even WPA3 I used it as a hotspot. Armbian has some weird obsolete NetworkManager, that does not work with WPA2. OpenWRD does not support other functions I need. And I did not use buildin networking managment, because it keept switching network interface names (multiple WIFI and LAN cards over USB). I can bind NetworkManager config to MAC and skip interface names completely. > It's the wrong board for that. It is the most basic task for Linux computer...
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    > [routing] is the most basic task for Linux computer... WTF?
  - tecleandor 4y ago
    > Another reason not to use it! Perfectly valid reason! I in fact am buying Orange Pi SBCs this days > I used it as a hotspot. Armbian has some weird obsolete NetworkManager, that does not work with WPA2. OpenWRD does not support other functions I need. I don't follow that. Armbian has the same package versions as Debian. I just checked on an Armbian Bullseye I have in an Armv7 board and it has support for WPA2 Personal, WPA2 Enterprise, and WPA3. If you want to keep a regular Linux distribution probably your best bet is using something like 'hostapd' > And I did not use buildin networking managment, because it keept switching network interface names (multiple WIFI and LAN cards over USB). I can bind NetworkManager config to MAC and skip interface names completely. You can set those names static easily with systemd. Create a file for every nic like '/etc/systemd/network/10-eth10.link' and fill it like: [Match] MACAddress=75:1a:d3:80:85:59 [Link] Name=eth10 And then update your initramfs: update-initramfs -u And ready! :) > It is the most basic task for Linux computer... Well, it depends for whom. Also, you need adequate software and hardware. About wireless, the chipset in an RPi4 is designed for clients, not APs, and its capabilities on having multiple clients are quite limited: https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues/3010 https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues/3010 Routers like the Omnia Turris, Mikrotik, PC Engines... use specific mini PCIe cards that can be as expensive as a full Raspberry Pi 4, just for the wireless. https://www.discomp.eu/wireless-minipci-cards_c14501412.html https://www.discomp.eu/wireless-minipci-cards_c14501412.html
DeathArrow 4y ago
>I am really tired of how bad Raspberry Pi are. It is basically overpriced hobby board. I would not recommend building any sort of industrial solution on top. But Raspberry Pi is intended to be a hobby board. Nobody claimed it is of industrial level and strength. Because some people try to use it instead of more robust and expensive solutions, sometimes with success, it doesn't mean it is the answer for everything.
pjc50 4y ago
And yet it's astonishingly successful, because it's a de-facto standard. Getting an industrial PC with comparable IO is quite tricky. Although in this instance I don't think they're using the IO, just a screen. > for 160 euro (4GB, PI 4) I see the scalping prices are still in play because it's so popular.
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  Bet they are using the IO, since he mentioned tracking bolt torque during manufacturing.
sulcate 4y ago
They prioritize industrial and embedded applications like this for sales, so it's not as impossible to get a board for projects like these.

hdhrufjdi 4y ago

> And it is bloody expensive, for 160 euro (4GB, PI 4), I can get much better x86 mini computer, Which one? Is it at least as power efficient idling and on full load? PS: PIs are usually a lot cheaper. You get 8gb for half the price usually. But it seems like you'd have to wait until later this year for such prices

t344344 4y ago
Intel NUC Kit NUC7CJYHN Barebone (Celeron Dual Core-J4005) barebone is sold for 112 euro. Add RAM and SSD... > PS: PIs are usually a lot cheaper. No they are not. Maybe a few years ago. But PIs use obsolete processor, with limited manufacturing capacity. I do not believe they will get any cheaper any time soon.
- hdhrufjdi 4y ago
  Yes, they are: https://geizhals.de/raspberry-pi-4-modell-b-a2301761.html https://geizhals.de/raspberry-pi-4-modell-b-a2301761.html 75€ until the end of 2021. Now 86€ as soon as there are new PIs available, note the 8gb model: https://www.berrybase.de/en/raspberry-pi-4-computer-modell-b-8gb-ram https://www.berrybase.de/en/raspberry-pi-4-computer-modell-b... New supply later this year: https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/supply-chain-update-its-good-news/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/supply-chain-update-its-goo...
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  That's a barebone kit without HDD or RAM... (so stack an extra 100 bucks on there, and if you're paying 100 for a pi, it already includes an SD card for storage). So no, it's WAY more expensive. Not to mention you're going to be looking at quite a bit of fiddling to get any sort of linux distro playing nicely on it, so from a tooling side, costs will be much higher. It's also literally 5 times bigger than a pi in a standard enclosure, so enclosure costs and space costs. Plus, it idles at the same power (~10 watts) that the pi pulls during max load. It maxes out at ~70 watts draw. 10 watts over 5 years = $35. 70 watts over 5 years = $250. Plus - I refuse to touch celeron with a 20ft pole. They're consistently one of the worst performing processors I've ever had the displeasure of using. You call the pi's hardware old, but the celeron in the model you linked is 5+ years old now, and it's the shittiest of the shitty models that intel sells. You can hate on the pi all you want - I tend to agree, they're a bit overpriced for what you get at the best of times, and when they're both expensive and hard to get... alternatives are a great option. But that hideous thing is not the alternative you should be suggesting.
  - hdhrufjdi 4y ago
    Thanks for the additional info
  - t344344 4y ago
    8 GB DDR4 is 20 euro. Another 20 for basic SSD. Raspberry PI I found does not have a case, no CPU heatsink, no power supply, no SD card... And running system out of writeable SD card is another joke! Not sure how I would "fiddle" with installing Linux distro. There is nothing out of spec, very common intel hardware. With PI3 and Raspbian, my keyboard did not work, because Pi does not support USB 1.1 correctly! This system idles around 5 watts, depending on peripherals. Max consumption for PI4 is 15 watts. Celeron in this system is a good CPU for small servers. Look at Serve The Home reviews. But main reason are peripherals, you get Intel chipset, Intel network card, Intel USB and so on. You do not have to deal with shitty chinese chipset from TVs! It does not even implement spec correctly! Initial revision of PI4 would not even power up, because most basic USBC power delivery (single resistor) was botched!

tecleandor 4y ago

Well, in fact that's not the price for an RPi 4 4G, that I think it's around 70-80. But the low stock is used by some people to list insane prices. Also, NetworkManager supports even WPA3 as a client, but I don't think it's the best option for building a router. It's better suited for a regular client. Anyway, if you were building a router in a small board like the RPi4, I'd recommend you to use OpenWRT instead of Debian. Also, if you want a "more standard" distro, just use Armbian. It's just plain Debian with ARM support. Yes, the RPi is scarce, expensive and not super powerful, but also its target is not being a wireless router at all: only one interface, no external antennas... It's the wrong board for that. Get a GL.iNET board with OpenWRT or a x86 multi interface miniPC for that.

t344344 4y ago
> low stock is used by some people to list insane prices Another reason not to use it! > NetworkManager supports even WPA3 I used it as a hotspot. Armbian has some weird obsolete NetworkManager, that does not work with WPA2. OpenWRD does not support other functions I need. And I did not use buildin networking managment, because it keept switching network interface names (multiple WIFI and LAN cards over USB). I can bind NetworkManager config to MAC and skip interface names completely. > It's the wrong board for that. It is the most basic task for Linux computer...
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  > [routing] is the most basic task for Linux computer... WTF?
- tecleandor 4y ago
  > Another reason not to use it! Perfectly valid reason! I in fact am buying Orange Pi SBCs this days > I used it as a hotspot. Armbian has some weird obsolete NetworkManager, that does not work with WPA2. OpenWRD does not support other functions I need. I don't follow that. Armbian has the same package versions as Debian. I just checked on an Armbian Bullseye I have in an Armv7 board and it has support for WPA2 Personal, WPA2 Enterprise, and WPA3. If you want to keep a regular Linux distribution probably your best bet is using something like 'hostapd' > And I did not use buildin networking managment, because it keept switching network interface names (multiple WIFI and LAN cards over USB). I can bind NetworkManager config to MAC and skip interface names completely. You can set those names static easily with systemd. Create a file for every nic like '/etc/systemd/network/10-eth10.link' and fill it like: [Match] MACAddress=75:1a:d3:80:85:59 [Link] Name=eth10 And then update your initramfs: update-initramfs -u And ready! :) > It is the most basic task for Linux computer... Well, it depends for whom. Also, you need adequate software and hardware. About wireless, the chipset in an RPi4 is designed for clients, not APs, and its capabilities on having multiple clients are quite limited: https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues/3010 https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues/3010 Routers like the Omnia Turris, Mikrotik, PC Engines... use specific mini PCIe cards that can be as expensive as a full Raspberry Pi 4, just for the wireless. https://www.discomp.eu/wireless-minipci-cards_c14501412.html https://www.discomp.eu/wireless-minipci-cards_c14501412.html

DeathArrow 4y ago

>I am really tired of how bad Raspberry Pi are. It is basically overpriced hobby board. I would not recommend building any sort of industrial solution on top. But Raspberry Pi is intended to be a hobby board. Nobody claimed it is of industrial level and strength. Because some people try to use it instead of more robust and expensive solutions, sometimes with success, it doesn't mean it is the answer for everything.

pjc50 4y ago

And yet it's astonishingly successful, because it's a de-facto standard. Getting an industrial PC with comparable IO is quite tricky. Although in this instance I don't think they're using the IO, just a screen. > for 160 euro (4GB, PI 4) I see the scalping prices are still in play because it's so popular.

horsawlarway 4y ago
Bet they are using the IO, since he mentioned tracking bolt torque during manufacturing.

sulcate 4y ago

They prioritize industrial and embedded applications like this for sales, so it's not as impossible to get a board for projects like these.