4 ms·

Many friends and families enjoy staying under one roof. Hotels and apartments rarely offer that to even 2 families of 4. Add in Grandparents and you’re looking

by awb 4y ago

Many friends and families enjoy staying under one roof. Hotels and apartments rarely offer that to even 2 families of 4. Add in Grandparents and you’re looking at 10-12 capacity. That’s 5-6 hotel rooms and typically nowhere to cook or sit at a table together to eat or play a game. Many houses sit empty when their owners are away. Why not use that space to house travelers without having to build more hotels? I think most cities have it backwards trying to regulate the hosts. Hosts aren’t at the property and aren’t usually awake at 1am when issues might occur. The renters cause the issues, so regulate the renters. Cities could mandate a 25-50% deposit that’s refunded if no noise/parking issues occur. Whoever put the deposit down will likely be at the house and self-policing their group that they invited. Makes more sense than blaming hosts when most bookings are “instant book”, or even if they do vet, it’s likely just a quick text chat or going off of previous AirBnB ratings (which many hosts rate 5/5 so the guest will return).

Symbiote 4y ago
In Europe there are "apartment hotels" which offer exactly this. Here are some examples: https://www.visitberlin.de/en/hotelthema/apartment-hotel https://www.visitberlin.de/en/hotelthema/apartment-hotel
smugma 4y ago
AirBnb is really great for families, in theory. I’ve had many great experiences with it. The problem is it is now polluted with grifters, and you don’t want to take a 15% chance that your place will have cockroaches, require digging through 8’ of snow to get to the front door, or have frozen pipes (all these have happened to me with Airbnb). Even worse, I feel that it went from a 5% bad rate to more like 35%.
pknomad 4y ago
This is true. But there are also people who buy up properties for AirBnB aren't trying to resource-allocate their own homes like Cloud/IAAS-style and try to use it for purely 100% hotel-like purposes. In doing so they're raising up the home prices, cheating out businesses that pay taxes for being legally allow to hotel, and cause problems for other homes that don't want a hotel in their backyard.
- kelnos 4y ago
  > cheating out businesses that pay taxes for being legally allow to hotel I have zero sympathy for this part of your argument: hotel zoning is just a legally-allowed monopoly, with all the bad things that usually comes with. And do note that, in some jurisdictions, there are now taxes specifically covering short-term rental activities. No "cheating" going on there. And any municipality that hasn't enacted such a tax... well, that's their oversight, then.
  - pknomad 4y ago
    You can have zero empathy for my arguments... but one still should be following the law. I dislike how zoning happens in the US (NIMBYism, et al.) but I still follow them to the best of my ability. These AirBnB folks are outright disregarding them. We can disagree about laws but not following/enforcing laws because you disagree with them (for most part) is a recipe for disaster.
- awb 4y ago
  Cities can solve this problem through zoning. Sedona does it well. Every HOA gets to decide if they are a tourist neighborhood or not. Short term rentals are either allowed or banned and you know that going in. There are many homes in tourist towns that are designed to be vacation homes. Sometimes they are 5+ bedrooms, or are located inside a resort area. Families don’t want to live in those homes and they’re not conducive to long term rentals either. Tourism zoning allows those homes to not sit empty and be taxed appropriately, while keeping short term rentals away from residential zoning areas likes parks, schools, etc. Instead you have cities passing dozens or hundreds of pages of regulations that makes no one happy. It’s led to lots of lawsuits, complicated enforcement and more bureaucracy. Simple is better. Another option is to allow anyone to rent, but cap it at 30-60 nights per year, or only during peak tourism months. It‘s enough income to supplement a homeowner’s mortgage, but not enough to make it a profitable investment opportunity.
  - pknomad 4y ago
    I don't know enough about zoning laws to have a strong stance on this matter. It seems like to me that the people who purchase homes specifically to run an AirBnB business seems to espouse "f@#! you, I got mine" attitude which is super contagious and toxic.
mulmen 4y ago
There is a home on my block that has a permanent vacation rental sign in the front yard. I talked to the owner the other day and she literally said "this is our vacation rental". They literally only own it to rent it out. This is in a residential neighborhood in Seattle, a city with unreasonably expensive housing. I frequently use AirBnB when traveling. Only once in my life have I stayed at an AirBnB that is actually a primary residence. All the others are full time short-term rentals. AKA Hotels.
- kelnos 4y ago
  The solution to unaffordable housing is to build more housing. I think you'll find if short-term rentals were banned tomorrow, rents and home prices would not drop much, if at all. Sure, maybe there'd be a short-term drop in home prices while full-time Airbnb hosts offload their properties, but it won't last. Building more housing in places where there is demand is the only way to reduce housing prices. We don't see that happening because homeowners like the high cost of housing, and vote down new development. Homeowners tend to have more political power since they're a bit more fervent about this sort of thing than renters, many of whom won't be living in the area long enough to care. Unfortunately, those renters who do want to stay, and perhaps even want to own their own home, just don't have the political clout to change things.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    I agree we need to build more housing and in places like Seattle that means denser housing as well. A single family home in the city is a fantasy. But there’s really no reason to ever sell a house here when you can just rent it out. Just building more is only part if the solution. I’m not saying we should just ban short term rentals. I’m saying we should make all rentals ruinously expensive unless they actually provide some economic benefit. If you aren’t providing housing to low income renters that truly can’t afford a home then you don’t get to buy more houses. Just destroy the incentives to hold real estate through taxes.

by awb 4y ago

Symbiote 4y ago

In Europe there are "apartment hotels" which offer exactly this. Here are some examples: https://www.visitberlin.de/en/hotelthema/apartment-hotel https://www.visitberlin.de/en/hotelthema/apartment-hotel

smugma 4y ago

AirBnb is really great for families, in theory. I’ve had many great experiences with it. The problem is it is now polluted with grifters, and you don’t want to take a 15% chance that your place will have cockroaches, require digging through 8’ of snow to get to the front door, or have frozen pipes (all these have happened to me with Airbnb). Even worse, I feel that it went from a 5% bad rate to more like 35%.

pknomad 4y ago

This is true. But there are also people who buy up properties for AirBnB aren't trying to resource-allocate their own homes like Cloud/IAAS-style and try to use it for purely 100% hotel-like purposes. In doing so they're raising up the home prices, cheating out businesses that pay taxes for being legally allow to hotel, and cause problems for other homes that don't want a hotel in their backyard.

kelnos 4y ago
> cheating out businesses that pay taxes for being legally allow to hotel I have zero sympathy for this part of your argument: hotel zoning is just a legally-allowed monopoly, with all the bad things that usually comes with. And do note that, in some jurisdictions, there are now taxes specifically covering short-term rental activities. No "cheating" going on there. And any municipality that hasn't enacted such a tax... well, that's their oversight, then.
- pknomad 4y ago
  You can have zero empathy for my arguments... but one still should be following the law. I dislike how zoning happens in the US (NIMBYism, et al.) but I still follow them to the best of my ability. These AirBnB folks are outright disregarding them. We can disagree about laws but not following/enforcing laws because you disagree with them (for most part) is a recipe for disaster.
awb 4y ago
Cities can solve this problem through zoning. Sedona does it well. Every HOA gets to decide if they are a tourist neighborhood or not. Short term rentals are either allowed or banned and you know that going in. There are many homes in tourist towns that are designed to be vacation homes. Sometimes they are 5+ bedrooms, or are located inside a resort area. Families don’t want to live in those homes and they’re not conducive to long term rentals either. Tourism zoning allows those homes to not sit empty and be taxed appropriately, while keeping short term rentals away from residential zoning areas likes parks, schools, etc. Instead you have cities passing dozens or hundreds of pages of regulations that makes no one happy. It’s led to lots of lawsuits, complicated enforcement and more bureaucracy. Simple is better. Another option is to allow anyone to rent, but cap it at 30-60 nights per year, or only during peak tourism months. It‘s enough income to supplement a homeowner’s mortgage, but not enough to make it a profitable investment opportunity.
- pknomad 4y ago
  I don't know enough about zoning laws to have a strong stance on this matter. It seems like to me that the people who purchase homes specifically to run an AirBnB business seems to espouse "f@#! you, I got mine" attitude which is super contagious and toxic.

mulmen 4y ago

There is a home on my block that has a permanent vacation rental sign in the front yard. I talked to the owner the other day and she literally said "this is our vacation rental". They literally only own it to rent it out. This is in a residential neighborhood in Seattle, a city with unreasonably expensive housing. I frequently use AirBnB when traveling. Only once in my life have I stayed at an AirBnB that is actually a primary residence. All the others are full time short-term rentals. AKA Hotels.

kelnos 4y ago
The solution to unaffordable housing is to build more housing. I think you'll find if short-term rentals were banned tomorrow, rents and home prices would not drop much, if at all. Sure, maybe there'd be a short-term drop in home prices while full-time Airbnb hosts offload their properties, but it won't last. Building more housing in places where there is demand is the only way to reduce housing prices. We don't see that happening because homeowners like the high cost of housing, and vote down new development. Homeowners tend to have more political power since they're a bit more fervent about this sort of thing than renters, many of whom won't be living in the area long enough to care. Unfortunately, those renters who do want to stay, and perhaps even want to own their own home, just don't have the political clout to change things.
- mulmen 4y ago
  I agree we need to build more housing and in places like Seattle that means denser housing as well. A single family home in the city is a fantasy. But there’s really no reason to ever sell a house here when you can just rent it out. Just building more is only part if the solution. I’m not saying we should just ban short term rentals. I’m saying we should make all rentals ruinously expensive unless they actually provide some economic benefit. If you aren’t providing housing to low income renters that truly can’t afford a home then you don’t get to buy more houses. Just destroy the incentives to hold real estate through taxes.