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I'm beginning to feel like DSP programming-- even visual DSP programming-- puts the user in the wrong domain for making music using a computer. It's a bit like

I'm beginning to feel like DSP programming-- even visual DSP programming-- puts the user in the wrong domain for making music using a computer. It's a bit like learning to play the piano, if your first lesson were to learn DSP. Edit: clarification

a2800276 4y ago
I would think of it more like: if you want to learn to play the piano, you'll need to sit down, learn some music theory and practice scales. This advice isn't necessarily the only way to go especially if you're happy just tapping out Chopsticks, but as a general rule ... it's a proven path. Same applies for electronic music: you need some understanding of theory, terminology and available tools, else you just end up twiddling knobs and creating "cool" effects.
spacechild1 4y ago
First, Pd is not only about DSP. Second, it depends very much on the kind of music you wanna do, right? We all agree that one wouldn't use Pd to produce the next Taylor Swift hit.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
It puts the user in the right domain for computer music, which is music/sound made through direct coding and control of software data structures. The point of computer music is to invent new things that can't be done elsewhere with software, not to copy existing things that have already been done. If you just want to mess with loops and plug-ins, use Ableton/Logic/Cubase/etc. They use the studio/sampler metaphor, which is completely different.
cageface 4y ago
People have done some fantastic stuff in Max but it's definitely the wrong level of abstraction for me. Too low level for dealing with music on a more conceptual level and too awkward for lower level coding compared to text based languages. I'm expecting generative AI to blow these kinds of tools out of the water very soon.
- jcelerier 4y ago
  I'm curious at what you would think of https://ossia.io https://ossia.io (i'm developing it). It's explicitly "one layer above" Max/Pd in terms of abstraction level (e.g. the objects are closer to Ableton/Bitwig devices or TD objects than Pd/Max objects) but allows to delve down to code in various languages whenever it makes sense (JS, GLSL, math expressions, C++ even)
  - cageface 4y ago
    I hadn't heard of it before but it looks interesting. I'll give it a closer look.
greggsy 4y ago
I learnt how to repair pianos, then learnt pd (after tooling around in SuperCollider and Reaktor). …am I doing it right?
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
I'm not sure who ever said "if you want to make music on a computer, learn DSP programming". Making music has many different approaches, and potentially lots of different stages that can be permuted, combined, discarded, repeated. Composition, performance, timbral adjustments, editing, mixing ... That said, tools like PureData and Max/MSP are not there just to do DSP. Consider this lovely example of generative music that has almost no DSP going on whatsoever - the entire patch is focused on composition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy-Ahm0j1CU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy-Ahm0j1CU That said, if you wanted to make music that sounds like Fleetwood Mac or Taylor Swift or Duke Ellington, then computer tools are probably not where you should start (though may be where you end up).
- ttctciyf 4y ago
  That's a really interesting piece you linked, thanks, and very impressive. I'm almost embarrassed to admit I could have mistaken (a couple of minutes of) it for some Sun Bear period Keith Jarrett! I couldn't make out how the piano sound itself is produced. Samples, I suppose, rather than some Pianoteq type modeling?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    Yes, I also saw the connection to Jarrett. I don't know what is being used for sound generation. I don't know Max all that well, but blowing the video up to full screen, it looked to me as if it only generates MIDI. If that's correct, then I suspect either one of the modern sample-based pianos or pianoteq.
ofalkaed 4y ago
Could you clarify more? I think I agree when it comes to pd but not the other audio DSLs, pd has the unfortunate image of being a modular synth program which is not at all accurate and I have noticed many pick it up because of that image and it kills their momentum, they spend a great deal of time learning a tool that is far more than they want or need. I have not noticed much of this in the other audio DSL communities I have been a part of over the years, people have a much clearer idea of what they are getting into. But I am not sure I understand what you are saying.
timeon 4y ago
PD is used also for VJ-ing. There are other approaches to do that as well but not sure why this one would be invalid.

a2800276 4y ago

I would think of it more like: if you want to learn to play the piano, you'll need to sit down, learn some music theory and practice scales. This advice isn't necessarily the only way to go especially if you're happy just tapping out Chopsticks, but as a general rule ... it's a proven path. Same applies for electronic music: you need some understanding of theory, terminology and available tools, else you just end up twiddling knobs and creating "cool" effects.

spacechild1 4y ago

First, Pd is not only about DSP. Second, it depends very much on the kind of music you wanna do, right? We all agree that one wouldn't use Pd to produce the next Taylor Swift hit.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago

It puts the user in the right domain for computer music, which is music/sound made through direct coding and control of software data structures. The point of computer music is to invent new things that can't be done elsewhere with software, not to copy existing things that have already been done. If you just want to mess with loops and plug-ins, use Ableton/Logic/Cubase/etc. They use the studio/sampler metaphor, which is completely different.

cageface 4y ago

People have done some fantastic stuff in Max but it's definitely the wrong level of abstraction for me. Too low level for dealing with music on a more conceptual level and too awkward for lower level coding compared to text based languages. I'm expecting generative AI to blow these kinds of tools out of the water very soon.

jcelerier 4y ago
I'm curious at what you would think of https://ossia.io https://ossia.io (i'm developing it). It's explicitly "one layer above" Max/Pd in terms of abstraction level (e.g. the objects are closer to Ableton/Bitwig devices or TD objects than Pd/Max objects) but allows to delve down to code in various languages whenever it makes sense (JS, GLSL, math expressions, C++ even)
- cageface 4y ago
  I hadn't heard of it before but it looks interesting. I'll give it a closer look.

greggsy 4y ago

I learnt how to repair pianos, then learnt pd (after tooling around in SuperCollider and Reaktor). …am I doing it right?

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

I'm not sure who ever said "if you want to make music on a computer, learn DSP programming". Making music has many different approaches, and potentially lots of different stages that can be permuted, combined, discarded, repeated. Composition, performance, timbral adjustments, editing, mixing ... That said, tools like PureData and Max/MSP are not there just to do DSP. Consider this lovely example of generative music that has almost no DSP going on whatsoever - the entire patch is focused on composition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy-Ahm0j1CU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy-Ahm0j1CU That said, if you wanted to make music that sounds like Fleetwood Mac or Taylor Swift or Duke Ellington, then computer tools are probably not where you should start (though may be where you end up).

ttctciyf 4y ago
That's a really interesting piece you linked, thanks, and very impressive. I'm almost embarrassed to admit I could have mistaken (a couple of minutes of) it for some Sun Bear period Keith Jarrett! I couldn't make out how the piano sound itself is produced. Samples, I suppose, rather than some Pianoteq type modeling?
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  Yes, I also saw the connection to Jarrett. I don't know what is being used for sound generation. I don't know Max all that well, but blowing the video up to full screen, it looked to me as if it only generates MIDI. If that's correct, then I suspect either one of the modern sample-based pianos or pianoteq.

ofalkaed 4y ago

Could you clarify more? I think I agree when it comes to pd but not the other audio DSLs, pd has the unfortunate image of being a modular synth program which is not at all accurate and I have noticed many pick it up because of that image and it kills their momentum, they spend a great deal of time learning a tool that is far more than they want or need. I have not noticed much of this in the other audio DSL communities I have been a part of over the years, people have a much clearer idea of what they are getting into. But I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

timeon 4y ago

PD is used also for VJ-ing. There are other approaches to do that as well but not sure why this one would be invalid.