4 ms·

> it's a specific formula that applies equally to everyone. That doesn’t mean the formula is reasonable or transparent. An AI is also a specific formula that a

> it's a specific formula that applies equally to everyone. That doesn’t mean the formula is reasonable or transparent. An AI is also a specific formula that applies equally to everyone. It’s about how the formula takes “weight” on the individual’s differences. > There are hard inquiries and soft inquiries Why there are “hard inquiries”? Why someone else inquiring my credit score should affect my credit score?

andsoitis 4y ago
> An AI is also a specific formula that applies equally to everyone. AI’s are not “a specific formula” and not only that, it’s decision-making is opaque to humans.
NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
>That doesn’t mean the formula is reasonable or transparent. An AI is also a specific formula that applies equally to everyone. You can learn literally everything you need to know about how the FICO credit scoring systems works in probably two or three hours of dedicated research, even though the model itself is a trade-secret. When lenders deny credit, they're legally obliged to provide the specific reasons why. This is not-even-in-the-same-ballpark as AI, where no-one can even tell you how inputs relate to outputs, not even the creators.
schrodinger 4y ago
I certainly don’t love the system, but the difference is “checking credit score in order to take more credit (eg a loan or credit card)” (hard) vs “checking credit score for my own knowledge” (soft). This distinction feels reasonable to me.
- AnthonyMouse 4y ago
  How is it reasonable? Anyone checking your credit score already knows that you're applying for new credit, because you're applying for new credit with them. Dinging your score over that only punishes you for soliciting credit offers from multiple lenders at once so you can choose the best terms. Which ought to be an antitrust violation.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    That's usually not the case, though. I was just looking around at Chase's credit report tracking thing, and they have this to say on credit inquiries: > The VantageScore credit score model takes rate shopping, e.g., for a mortgage or car loan, into consideration. All inquiries for mortgages, auto loans and major credit cards that appear in your credit file within a 14-day window are interpreted as a single inquiry. I believe that's the case for the FICO score algorithm as well. I think a 14-day window is probably too short, but it likely does cover most situations.
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    But if you're applying for, and repeatedly being rejected for, extension of credit by third parties that is absolutely something a pre-existing lender would reasonably consider when thinking about risk. You have to understand that there is a no "credit denied" feedback into the credit rating system. The standard pattern for an approved credit application is a hard-pull followed by the opening of a new tradeline, both of which affect your score. If you're applying for credit, but not being approved, then that just shows up as a hard-pull with no new line. The FICO score is also set up specifically to ignore additional hard-pulls for the same type of credit within a bounded period; so if you go shopping for a mortgage (or an auto loan, or a student loan), then multiple queries within a 30 day period are coalesced, and only count once from a scoring perspective.
  - refurb 4y ago
    I dont think its unreasonable for one’s credit score to get dinged if half a dozen lenders check their score - that means the consumer went through the initial stages of trying to get multiple loans. But more importantly the ding is maybe 10 points which is pretty much irrelevant to the “buckets” that define credit worthiness (>800, 700-800, etc). Plus individual lenders can look at the report themselves and make their own determination.
  - dwallin 4y ago
    It's a defense against the double spend problem. It minimizes potential timing issues that could allow someone to simultaneously taking out multiple credit lines without the ability to properly evaluate the risk.

andsoitis 4y ago

> An AI is also a specific formula that applies equally to everyone. AI’s are not “a specific formula” and not only that, it’s decision-making is opaque to humans.

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago

>That doesn’t mean the formula is reasonable or transparent. An AI is also a specific formula that applies equally to everyone. You can learn literally everything you need to know about how the FICO credit scoring systems works in probably two or three hours of dedicated research, even though the model itself is a trade-secret. When lenders deny credit, they're legally obliged to provide the specific reasons why. This is not-even-in-the-same-ballpark as AI, where no-one can even tell you how inputs relate to outputs, not even the creators.

schrodinger 4y ago

I certainly don’t love the system, but the difference is “checking credit score in order to take more credit (eg a loan or credit card)” (hard) vs “checking credit score for my own knowledge” (soft). This distinction feels reasonable to me.

AnthonyMouse 4y ago
How is it reasonable? Anyone checking your credit score already knows that you're applying for new credit, because you're applying for new credit with them. Dinging your score over that only punishes you for soliciting credit offers from multiple lenders at once so you can choose the best terms. Which ought to be an antitrust violation.
- kelnos 4y ago
  That's usually not the case, though. I was just looking around at Chase's credit report tracking thing, and they have this to say on credit inquiries: > The VantageScore credit score model takes rate shopping, e.g., for a mortgage or car loan, into consideration. All inquiries for mortgages, auto loans and major credit cards that appear in your credit file within a 14-day window are interpreted as a single inquiry. I believe that's the case for the FICO score algorithm as well. I think a 14-day window is probably too short, but it likely does cover most situations.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  But if you're applying for, and repeatedly being rejected for, extension of credit by third parties that is absolutely something a pre-existing lender would reasonably consider when thinking about risk. You have to understand that there is a no "credit denied" feedback into the credit rating system. The standard pattern for an approved credit application is a hard-pull followed by the opening of a new tradeline, both of which affect your score. If you're applying for credit, but not being approved, then that just shows up as a hard-pull with no new line. The FICO score is also set up specifically to ignore additional hard-pulls for the same type of credit within a bounded period; so if you go shopping for a mortgage (or an auto loan, or a student loan), then multiple queries within a 30 day period are coalesced, and only count once from a scoring perspective.
- refurb 4y ago
  I dont think its unreasonable for one’s credit score to get dinged if half a dozen lenders check their score - that means the consumer went through the initial stages of trying to get multiple loans. But more importantly the ding is maybe 10 points which is pretty much irrelevant to the “buckets” that define credit worthiness (>800, 700-800, etc). Plus individual lenders can look at the report themselves and make their own determination.
- dwallin 4y ago
  It's a defense against the double spend problem. It minimizes potential timing issues that could allow someone to simultaneously taking out multiple credit lines without the ability to properly evaluate the risk.