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Laughable attempt to control something very few can understand at the moment. What does control mean? You want to control who can access it? Maybe for now, you

Laughable attempt to control something very few can understand at the moment. What does control mean? You want to control who can access it? Maybe for now, you can broker a deal with OpenAI, but this technology will eventually spread, then if can be self hosted, what can you do? If not for consumer facing, nothing will stop somebody to transfer data from EU to US to get their data processed by a GPT model. This level of regulation is just fantasy, not even someone like China could do it, where the whole internet access is controlled.

Mashimo 4y ago
If the EU makes a law that companies or public institutions can't use (or limit the use) for AI in recruitment, administration of justice or social scoring, they will just outsource it to the US? And suddenly they are allowed to do it? I have my doubts. They risk risk up to 30 Million EUR or 6% of global revenue in penalties.
- karmasimida 4y ago
  EU can ban generative AI if they want, and they might as well give up their place in this new wave of generative AI, which in reality, counting on EU's past records, they could and might go there, but it is stupid and suicidal regardless. But they CAN'T control it. You can't have cake and eat it. Eventually the technology will become so pervasive, that your ever query might go to a service that calls a service that calls another service which uses GPT as part of the signal analysis. I doubt EU can audit every API calls, and every API's supply chain issue.
  - LelouBil 4y ago
    They aren't *banning* generative AI. They are making sure you can't say "the AI chose so" when a client asks you why they were rejected for a loan or something similar.
    - throwaway48495 4y ago
      Funny. I was just filling my tax report and the reason for not accepting some of the deductions I still think I should be getting is "because the program said so". I live in EU. Perhaps the EU should first clean it's own porch before talking about what the private sector should do.
      - seszett 4y ago
        As far as I know most countries have clear, public algorithms for tax reports, may I ask which country you are talking about? In any case your problem is one of an incompetent person not being able to explain the decision, not a black box algorithm (since the program you are talking about has been programmed, not taught like an AI). You have recourses (though probably difficult to exercise) unlike with a decision officially based on an AI in which case it is technically impossible to motivate the decision.
  - Mashimo 4y ago
    You think in foreseeable future we are unable to develop a credit system that does not call an AI API? I dont' know, those systems seems rather closed. I have my doubts. We have rules against discrimination of gender. Just as an example. Those work without looking into every API call.
  - seszett 4y ago
    > I doubt EU can audit every API calls, and every API's supply chain issue. Laws have never made things impossible, they make things illegal. I doubt any country can prevent people from killing random people in the streets, yet this is generally illegal. It is usually enforced after the fact, and sometimes the criminal doesn't get caught. That doesn't make the law useless.
seszett 4y ago
> Laughable attempt to control something very few can understand at the moment. It's a simplistic take on a misunderstood directive law project. The point of that law is just to ban decisions made through black box algorithms, mostly because a black box algorithm (typically, some kind of "AI") cannot be proofed against discrimination and cannot explain why the decision was made, which is a regulatory requirement. That ChatGPT is generalistic enough to make these decisions the same way a specialist credit score AI would, doesn't really change anything to the EU plan or anything really. It would just be as illegal (and likely already deemed illegal in most EU countries under local laws). > nothing will stop somebody to transfer data from EU to US to get their data processed Well, EU law already forbids that. So you can do it of course, but it's outright illegal. Companies have already been fined significant fines for doing that, and most companies I know and work with are very aware of it, and take extreme care not to send data to or through the US. Of course, individuals can choose to use US services because this has nothing to do whatsoever with controlling people but controlling companies, which is exactly the opposition situation compared to China.
paulryanrogers 4y ago
People control difficult things all the time, albeit with varying degrees of success. Imperfect enforcement doesn't mean we just throw up our hands and legalize murder. If AI is a negative in some contexts then it's reasonable for some sovereign countries to outlaw or regulate those uses.

Mashimo 4y ago

If the EU makes a law that companies or public institutions can't use (or limit the use) for AI in recruitment, administration of justice or social scoring, they will just outsource it to the US? And suddenly they are allowed to do it? I have my doubts. They risk risk up to 30 Million EUR or 6% of global revenue in penalties.

karmasimida 4y ago
EU can ban generative AI if they want, and they might as well give up their place in this new wave of generative AI, which in reality, counting on EU's past records, they could and might go there, but it is stupid and suicidal regardless. But they CAN'T control it. You can't have cake and eat it. Eventually the technology will become so pervasive, that your ever query might go to a service that calls a service that calls another service which uses GPT as part of the signal analysis. I doubt EU can audit every API calls, and every API's supply chain issue.
- LelouBil 4y ago
  They aren't *banning* generative AI. They are making sure you can't say "the AI chose so" when a client asks you why they were rejected for a loan or something similar.
  - throwaway48495 4y ago
    Funny. I was just filling my tax report and the reason for not accepting some of the deductions I still think I should be getting is "because the program said so". I live in EU. Perhaps the EU should first clean it's own porch before talking about what the private sector should do.
    - seszett 4y ago
      As far as I know most countries have clear, public algorithms for tax reports, may I ask which country you are talking about? In any case your problem is one of an incompetent person not being able to explain the decision, not a black box algorithm (since the program you are talking about has been programmed, not taught like an AI). You have recourses (though probably difficult to exercise) unlike with a decision officially based on an AI in which case it is technically impossible to motivate the decision.
- Mashimo 4y ago
  You think in foreseeable future we are unable to develop a credit system that does not call an AI API? I dont' know, those systems seems rather closed. I have my doubts. We have rules against discrimination of gender. Just as an example. Those work without looking into every API call.
- seszett 4y ago
  > I doubt EU can audit every API calls, and every API's supply chain issue. Laws have never made things impossible, they make things illegal. I doubt any country can prevent people from killing random people in the streets, yet this is generally illegal. It is usually enforced after the fact, and sometimes the criminal doesn't get caught. That doesn't make the law useless.

seszett 4y ago

> Laughable attempt to control something very few can understand at the moment. It's a simplistic take on a misunderstood directive law project. The point of that law is just to ban decisions made through black box algorithms, mostly because a black box algorithm (typically, some kind of "AI") cannot be proofed against discrimination and cannot explain why the decision was made, which is a regulatory requirement. That ChatGPT is generalistic enough to make these decisions the same way a specialist credit score AI would, doesn't really change anything to the EU plan or anything really. It would just be as illegal (and likely already deemed illegal in most EU countries under local laws). > nothing will stop somebody to transfer data from EU to US to get their data processed Well, EU law already forbids that. So you can do it of course, but it's outright illegal. Companies have already been fined significant fines for doing that, and most companies I know and work with are very aware of it, and take extreme care not to send data to or through the US. Of course, individuals can choose to use US services because this has nothing to do whatsoever with controlling people but controlling companies, which is exactly the opposition situation compared to China.

paulryanrogers 4y ago

People control difficult things all the time, albeit with varying degrees of success. Imperfect enforcement doesn't mean we just throw up our hands and legalize murder. If AI is a negative in some contexts then it's reasonable for some sovereign countries to outlaw or regulate those uses.