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Because I think it is absurd and frankly ascientific how hard people cling to the idea that depression and anxiety are some biological or chemical body problem

by jjcon 4y ago

Because I think it is absurd and frankly ascientific how hard people cling to the idea that depression and anxiety are some biological or chemical body problem that is entirely outside their control. That it requires drugs or “special therapy techniques” to improve (Quite a useful narrative if your trying to sell those though) If that were the case population level rates would be relatively stable over time and not vary dramatically by country but that is wildly not the case. Clearly lifestyle choices are a primary factor here but that is so taboo these days to even mention.

Groxx 4y ago
While explicitly not trying to take a side: >If that were the case population level rates would be relatively stable over time and not vary dramatically by country but that is wildly not the case. That would be true if and only if the measurements were accurate and did not change by time or location. The measurement strategies have been changing dramatically in the past decades, and countries are almost universally in disagreement over the (significant) details. Wide variance in time and location are definitely expected, drawing a conclusion based on that is very much standing on shaky ground.
comfypotato 4y ago
> If that we’re the case This isn’t necessarily true. There’s a wide variety of reasons for which diagnoses of mental illnesses would vary greatly. Equating Psychology to hard sciences is naive. It is the softest of sciences, but labeling it as non-science would be ridiculous. I personally think Psychiatrists in particular have one of the most difficult jobs as physicians. It’s made worse for patients by the fact that a poorly performing Psychiatrist has many scapegoats behind which to hide. Unfortunately I spend a lot of time around mentally ill folk, myself included. A good dose/choice of medication and a good therapist-client-match work modern miracles on people, and it’s very easy to see when you’re around it. It’s very similar to a surgery with a low success rate.
- jjcon 4y ago
  > softest of sciences, but labeling it as non-science would be ridiculous It is about as scientific as chiropractics and acupuncture, full of anecdote and very little substance, you even provided some yourself. How can you possibly trust much of anything coming out of those disciplines when the majority of papers can't even be replicated?
  - comfypotato 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - jjcon 4y ago
      > You appear to have no vested interest in someone who claims to have benefitted from therapy, and it’s very apparent you don’t see a therapist yourself. I could replace therapy in that sentence with chiropractics or acupuncture and it would express an equally meaningless platitude. > Suggesting that the recent decades of funding and research in the general psychology domain haven’t yielded good results is humorously ignorant. And yet if we look at populations (as we do to benchmark real medicine) in much of the western world deaths from despair are up, depression and anxiety are up, population happiness is trending down. What a testament to those decades of research. > From this perspective, you “having a problem” with it makes you look like a sociopath This is a clear violation of HN rules, I suggest you take a look at them. What I have a problem with is people being duped into spending tons of money by charlatans. People in need spend money on tons of things they are convinced help them (supplements, psychics, acupuncture etc), that isn't evidence of their utility.
      - comfypotato 4y ago
        > clear violation of HN rules Sorry. Also, it’s not directed at you but rather someone who would deny another what they knew to be good medicine. It would be valid, in that case, would it not? (Still against the rules, I guess. I wouldn’t mind being banned for accurately labeling a sociopath; that would be a decent signal to spend my time elsewhere.) You actually believe therapy to be a complete farce, which I hadn’t comprehended before this point. Read some systematic literature review abstracts. Parse some statistics. Ask a physician you trust to explain it to you. Research doesn’t suggest that therapy improves the lives of everyone but rather that it’s effective treatment for disease. You could similarly find papers that say the same thing about acupuncture or chiropractors: when I say “research” here, I’m referring to many orders of magnitudes more psychology papers. Tens of thousands would pass your replication crisis criticism criteria.
jamilton 4y ago
What do you mean? Talk therapy makes the assumption that depression/anxiety is not solely biological/chemical, and that the therapy will in some way alter the patient's mindset, lifestyle choices, environment, etc.

by jjcon 4y ago

Groxx 4y ago

While explicitly not trying to take a side: >If that were the case population level rates would be relatively stable over time and not vary dramatically by country but that is wildly not the case. That would be true if and only if the measurements were accurate and did not change by time or location. The measurement strategies have been changing dramatically in the past decades, and countries are almost universally in disagreement over the (significant) details. Wide variance in time and location are definitely expected, drawing a conclusion based on that is very much standing on shaky ground.

comfypotato 4y ago

> If that we’re the case This isn’t necessarily true. There’s a wide variety of reasons for which diagnoses of mental illnesses would vary greatly. Equating Psychology to hard sciences is naive. It is the softest of sciences, but labeling it as non-science would be ridiculous. I personally think Psychiatrists in particular have one of the most difficult jobs as physicians. It’s made worse for patients by the fact that a poorly performing Psychiatrist has many scapegoats behind which to hide. Unfortunately I spend a lot of time around mentally ill folk, myself included. A good dose/choice of medication and a good therapist-client-match work modern miracles on people, and it’s very easy to see when you’re around it. It’s very similar to a surgery with a low success rate.

jjcon 4y ago
> softest of sciences, but labeling it as non-science would be ridiculous It is about as scientific as chiropractics and acupuncture, full of anecdote and very little substance, you even provided some yourself. How can you possibly trust much of anything coming out of those disciplines when the majority of papers can't even be replicated?
- comfypotato 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - jjcon 4y ago
    > You appear to have no vested interest in someone who claims to have benefitted from therapy, and it’s very apparent you don’t see a therapist yourself. I could replace therapy in that sentence with chiropractics or acupuncture and it would express an equally meaningless platitude. > Suggesting that the recent decades of funding and research in the general psychology domain haven’t yielded good results is humorously ignorant. And yet if we look at populations (as we do to benchmark real medicine) in much of the western world deaths from despair are up, depression and anxiety are up, population happiness is trending down. What a testament to those decades of research. > From this perspective, you “having a problem” with it makes you look like a sociopath This is a clear violation of HN rules, I suggest you take a look at them. What I have a problem with is people being duped into spending tons of money by charlatans. People in need spend money on tons of things they are convinced help them (supplements, psychics, acupuncture etc), that isn't evidence of their utility.
    - comfypotato 4y ago
      > clear violation of HN rules Sorry. Also, it’s not directed at you but rather someone who would deny another what they knew to be good medicine. It would be valid, in that case, would it not? (Still against the rules, I guess. I wouldn’t mind being banned for accurately labeling a sociopath; that would be a decent signal to spend my time elsewhere.) You actually believe therapy to be a complete farce, which I hadn’t comprehended before this point. Read some systematic literature review abstracts. Parse some statistics. Ask a physician you trust to explain it to you. Research doesn’t suggest that therapy improves the lives of everyone but rather that it’s effective treatment for disease. You could similarly find papers that say the same thing about acupuncture or chiropractors: when I say “research” here, I’m referring to many orders of magnitudes more psychology papers. Tens of thousands would pass your replication crisis criticism criteria.

jamilton 4y ago

What do you mean? Talk therapy makes the assumption that depression/anxiety is not solely biological/chemical, and that the therapy will in some way alter the patient's mindset, lifestyle choices, environment, etc.