4 ms·

Miller Puckette: Inside PureData – Lectures on pd/development of computer music

78 points by ofalkaed 4y ago

chaosprint 4y ago
These are very valuable resources! Thanks for sharing. Another very good resource for learning DSP / computer music is the Bela course. You don't need to have a Bela for the course! https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCrgFeG6pwQmdbB6l3ehC8oBBZbatVoz3 https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCrgFeG6pwQmdbB6l3ehC8oBB... I am also developing a computer music language here at: https://glicol.org https://glicol.org Book recommandation: Pirkle, Will C. "Designing Audio Effect Plugins in C++: For AAX, AU, and VST3 With DSP Theory." (2019).
- chaosprint 4y ago
  btw I am trying to make some subtitles for it: https://github.com/chaosprint/inside-puredata-lectures-subtitle https://github.com/chaosprint/inside-puredata-lectures-subti...
ofalkaed 4y ago
First three videos are ripe with technical difficulties but after that things get sorted out. Quite interesting so far, videos alternate between explaining the pd code base and the development of realtime computer music composition/synthesis.
matt_daemon 4y ago
For those interested in computer music, Puckette also created Max/MSP[0], which is graphically based and potentially more approachable for a beginner. [0] https://cycling74.com/products/max https://cycling74.com/products/max
- geokon 4y ago
  is it still relevant these days? from what ive saw last, touchdesigner was in a completely different league in quality and ease of use
  - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
    Max has graphics support and is much used by artists and people making arty minimalist (interactive) media. TD has more of a game-ish aesthetic. Max/Jitter is better for chopping up and distorting video streams and grunge-ifying them, with some simple renders and FX on top. As a music system - it's in a weird place, because it's incredibly awkward if you're used to even the most rudimentary coding. A construct that takes a minute or two in Python can take five or ten times longer in Max. But it has some decent DSP features, including custom DSP coding, so it's a good way to get certain things done. Or at least prototyped.
  - ofalkaed 4y ago
    PureData and Max are primarily about synthesis and composition not multimedia, they are just capable of doing video as well. Both are still relevant. Different markets.
  - immmmmm 4y ago
    imho, it's quite relevant when integrated with Ableton Live https://www.ableton.com/fr/live/max-for-live/ https://www.ableton.com/fr/live/max-for-live/
  - enqk 4y ago
    people using touchdesigner often work with other tools, such as Max/MSP / Max4Live so I don't think it's really an either or thing
- ofalkaed 4y ago
  Well, Miller created Max, which back in those days was more about composition than synthesis and relied on external hardware to create sound. Another fella took Max and developed the commercial product and developed it some more. During this time home computers became good enough for realtime synthesis so Miller developed PD which combined aspects of Max with realtime audio synthesis capabilities. Max thought this was pretty great so integrated pd into Max which gave us Max/MSP, Max is Max Mathews who developed the Music(n) family of programing languages and MSP is Miller S. Puckette. I would not say that pd or Max/MSP is more approachable, they are pretty even these days unless you stick to vanilla pd with no externals which almost no one does, the main differences is that Max/MSP gives you all you need out of the box but pd can run just about anywhere including in plugins if you are that sort. Max/MSP is considerably more modern in aesthetic but PlugData[0] and PurrData[1] offer more modern interfaces for pd with a few new tricks, PlugData is a plugin version of pd (also standalone), Purrdata is a JavaScript rewrite of the interface with prepackaged externals and solid documentation. And we have a handful of other varieties of pd each which have their own slant and can be found on puredata.info. 0: https://plugdata.org https://plugdata.org 1: https://www.purrdata.net https://www.purrdata.net Edit, ok not having a dozen different varieties and hundreds of externals to choose from does make Max/MSP more approachable. I was mostly speaking from the standpoint of use but I realized all I did was say that pd is an example of a major flaw of OSS in the days of analysis paralysis.
  - maxime_cb 4y ago
    Shameless plug: for something more approachable, I've created NoiseCraft, which runs in a web browser, has fewer primitives, and is designed to be easier for beginners to grasp: https://noisecraft.app/1136 https://noisecraft.app/1136 (just hit "Play" in the top-right corner). More examples you can try on the browse page: https://noisecraft.app/browse https://noisecraft.app/browse
    - chaosprint 4y ago
      Oh I love this! I share the same opinion on most of your design principles.
jancsika 4y ago
I'm beginning to feel like DSP programming-- even visual DSP programming-- puts the user in the wrong domain for making music using a computer. It's a bit like learning to play the piano, if your first lesson were to learn DSP. Edit: clarification
- a2800276 4y ago
  I would think of it more like: if you want to learn to play the piano, you'll need to sit down, learn some music theory and practice scales. This advice isn't necessarily the only way to go especially if you're happy just tapping out Chopsticks, but as a general rule ... it's a proven path. Same applies for electronic music: you need some understanding of theory, terminology and available tools, else you just end up twiddling knobs and creating "cool" effects.
- spacechild1 4y ago
  First, Pd is not only about DSP. Second, it depends very much on the kind of music you wanna do, right? We all agree that one wouldn't use Pd to produce the next Taylor Swift hit.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  It puts the user in the right domain for computer music, which is music/sound made through direct coding and control of software data structures. The point of computer music is to invent new things that can't be done elsewhere with software, not to copy existing things that have already been done. If you just want to mess with loops and plug-ins, use Ableton/Logic/Cubase/etc. They use the studio/sampler metaphor, which is completely different.
- cageface 4y ago
  People have done some fantastic stuff in Max but it's definitely the wrong level of abstraction for me. Too low level for dealing with music on a more conceptual level and too awkward for lower level coding compared to text based languages. I'm expecting generative AI to blow these kinds of tools out of the water very soon.
  - 4y ago

78 points by ofalkaed 4y ago

These are very valuable resources! Thanks for sharing. Another very good resource for learning DSP / computer music is the Bela course. You don't need to have a Bela for the course! https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCrgFeG6pwQmdbB6l3ehC8oBBZbatVoz3 https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCrgFeG6pwQmdbB6l3ehC8oBB... I am also developing a computer music language here at: https://glicol.org https://glicol.org Book recommandation: Pirkle, Will C. "Designing Audio Effect Plugins in C++: For AAX, AU, and VST3 With DSP Theory." (2019).

chaosprint 4y ago
btw I am trying to make some subtitles for it: https://github.com/chaosprint/inside-puredata-lectures-subtitle https://github.com/chaosprint/inside-puredata-lectures-subti...

ofalkaed 4y ago

First three videos are ripe with technical difficulties but after that things get sorted out. Quite interesting so far, videos alternate between explaining the pd code base and the development of realtime computer music composition/synthesis.

matt_daemon 4y ago

For those interested in computer music, Puckette also created Max/MSP[0], which is graphically based and potentially more approachable for a beginner. [0] https://cycling74.com/products/max https://cycling74.com/products/max

geokon 4y ago
is it still relevant these days? from what ive saw last, touchdesigner was in a completely different league in quality and ease of use
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  Max has graphics support and is much used by artists and people making arty minimalist (interactive) media. TD has more of a game-ish aesthetic. Max/Jitter is better for chopping up and distorting video streams and grunge-ifying them, with some simple renders and FX on top. As a music system - it's in a weird place, because it's incredibly awkward if you're used to even the most rudimentary coding. A construct that takes a minute or two in Python can take five or ten times longer in Max. But it has some decent DSP features, including custom DSP coding, so it's a good way to get certain things done. Or at least prototyped.
- ofalkaed 4y ago
  PureData and Max are primarily about synthesis and composition not multimedia, they are just capable of doing video as well. Both are still relevant. Different markets.
- immmmmm 4y ago
  imho, it's quite relevant when integrated with Ableton Live https://www.ableton.com/fr/live/max-for-live/ https://www.ableton.com/fr/live/max-for-live/
- enqk 4y ago
  people using touchdesigner often work with other tools, such as Max/MSP / Max4Live so I don't think it's really an either or thing
ofalkaed 4y ago
Well, Miller created Max, which back in those days was more about composition than synthesis and relied on external hardware to create sound. Another fella took Max and developed the commercial product and developed it some more. During this time home computers became good enough for realtime synthesis so Miller developed PD which combined aspects of Max with realtime audio synthesis capabilities. Max thought this was pretty great so integrated pd into Max which gave us Max/MSP, Max is Max Mathews who developed the Music(n) family of programing languages and MSP is Miller S. Puckette. I would not say that pd or Max/MSP is more approachable, they are pretty even these days unless you stick to vanilla pd with no externals which almost no one does, the main differences is that Max/MSP gives you all you need out of the box but pd can run just about anywhere including in plugins if you are that sort. Max/MSP is considerably more modern in aesthetic but PlugData[0] and PurrData[1] offer more modern interfaces for pd with a few new tricks, PlugData is a plugin version of pd (also standalone), Purrdata is a JavaScript rewrite of the interface with prepackaged externals and solid documentation. And we have a handful of other varieties of pd each which have their own slant and can be found on puredata.info. 0: https://plugdata.org https://plugdata.org 1: https://www.purrdata.net https://www.purrdata.net Edit, ok not having a dozen different varieties and hundreds of externals to choose from does make Max/MSP more approachable. I was mostly speaking from the standpoint of use but I realized all I did was say that pd is an example of a major flaw of OSS in the days of analysis paralysis.
- maxime_cb 4y ago
  Shameless plug: for something more approachable, I've created NoiseCraft, which runs in a web browser, has fewer primitives, and is designed to be easier for beginners to grasp: https://noisecraft.app/1136 https://noisecraft.app/1136 (just hit "Play" in the top-right corner). More examples you can try on the browse page: https://noisecraft.app/browse https://noisecraft.app/browse
  - chaosprint 4y ago
    Oh I love this! I share the same opinion on most of your design principles.

jancsika 4y ago

I'm beginning to feel like DSP programming-- even visual DSP programming-- puts the user in the wrong domain for making music using a computer. It's a bit like learning to play the piano, if your first lesson were to learn DSP. Edit: clarification

a2800276 4y ago
I would think of it more like: if you want to learn to play the piano, you'll need to sit down, learn some music theory and practice scales. This advice isn't necessarily the only way to go especially if you're happy just tapping out Chopsticks, but as a general rule ... it's a proven path. Same applies for electronic music: you need some understanding of theory, terminology and available tools, else you just end up twiddling knobs and creating "cool" effects.
spacechild1 4y ago
First, Pd is not only about DSP. Second, it depends very much on the kind of music you wanna do, right? We all agree that one wouldn't use Pd to produce the next Taylor Swift hit.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
It puts the user in the right domain for computer music, which is music/sound made through direct coding and control of software data structures. The point of computer music is to invent new things that can't be done elsewhere with software, not to copy existing things that have already been done. If you just want to mess with loops and plug-ins, use Ableton/Logic/Cubase/etc. They use the studio/sampler metaphor, which is completely different.
cageface 4y ago
People have done some fantastic stuff in Max but it's definitely the wrong level of abstraction for me. Too low level for dealing with music on a more conceptual level and too awkward for lower level coding compared to text based languages. I'm expecting generative AI to blow these kinds of tools out of the water very soon.
- 4y ago