5 ms·

I mean it 100% is ultimately discussion no matter how much one wants to shroud it in academic ivory tower BS.

by jjcon 4y ago

johnchristopher 4y ago
Pretty sure the vast majority of therapists have left the academic ivory tower and build their practice on years of secular experience but okay.
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
If we reduce it to an incredibly basic form, sure, in the same way that surgery is just ultimately stabbing with medical ivory tower BS.
- jjcon 4y ago
  If my surgeon had as much education as the average therapist does and surgery science had the replication crisis that therapy does I would call it exactly that: stabbing with medical ivory tower bs… thankfully that isn’t quite the case
  - comfypotato 4y ago
    You’ve both labeled therapy as an ivory tower and implied therapists don’t have much education; that’s somewhat of a contradiction. What’s your purpose here? I think a much better analogy than surgery would be a software bootcamp. In the same sense that a classroom-oriented bootcamp is just discussion, therapy is just discussion. There’s no replication crisis for the greater umbrella question of whether or not therapy is effective. Therapy in combination with medication is provably more effective than either alone (or nothing).
    - jjcon 4y ago
      > You’ve both labeled therapy as an ivory tower and implied therapists don’t have much education; that’s somewhat of a contradiction. No contradiction - The problem isn't education obviously - its that some professions and disciplines are far more likely to produce pretentious ivory towers than others, that I have a problem with. Typically and ironically imo it is stronger in the soft sciences than the hard.
      - austinjp 4y ago
        Since you mention surgery as some sort of high-value comparator, surgical training favours people with some unpleasant personality traits [0] (apparently due to the stressful nature of the work), while surgery itself is a very powerful placebo [1]. This isn't to say that surgery or surgeons are evil and to be avoided. Not at all. It just adds nuance to the picture: the degree of training your healthcare professional receives is only one aspect of their job, albeit an important one. [0] https://doi.org/10.1308/rcsbull.2015.331 https://doi.org/10.1308/rcsbull.2015.331 [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6693073/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6693073/
        baremetal 4y ago
        > surgical training favours people with some unpleasant personality traits Do I care what kind of personality my surgeon has? No. I care about his aptitude at his job.
        johnchristopher 4y ago
        Let's hope your surgeon personality doesn't help them too much with hiding their drug abuse problem if they have one then and that you are not the one going under the scalpel when they first start to lose it. > Alcohol and drug abuse are a significant issue among physicians in general and surgeons in particular. A recent 7000-member survey of the American College of Surgeons demonstrated a prevalence for alcohol abuse among male surgeons at 13.8% and for female surgeons at 25.4%. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/1107187 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstrac... This dictionary and factoid HN comment war thread makes me want to waste karma.
        comfypotato 4y ago
        If you feel like diving, I literally got a response from dang a few days ago after absolutely losing my shit in another thread. In that case, the results for myself were not positive, and I regret my actions. At least it was a first offense and I didn’t get banned. Generally, though, I feel HN is a good place to cathartically vent some heat. The limits/guidelines are set such that you can be aggressive without breaking them. You can add value in an aggressive tone. It’s like a city where the drivers are aggressive. Being kind, the first comment guideline, requires respect as opposed to syrupy fake facades. MMA fighters often respect each other, for example. This attitude is acknowledging the toxicity of anonymous internet culture and making the best of it. It’s an unhealthy place, but there’s value to be made/found. Are there any anonymous internet forums good for your mental health? I think not. Jjconn’s take that therapy is useless makes me mad, and they’re willing to yell about it. I have something to gain here by learning their perspective.
squeaky-clean 4y ago
No, therapy usually involves lots of homework as well. The talking part of it is essential to get there, but if you just go to therapy to talk it won't help much.
johndunne 4y ago
What makes you want to apply reductionism at level 100%. A discussion might help.
- jjcon 4y ago
  Because I think it is absurd and frankly ascientific how hard people cling to the idea that depression and anxiety are some biological or chemical body problem that is entirely outside their control. That it requires drugs or “special therapy techniques” to improve (Quite a useful narrative if your trying to sell those though) If that were the case population level rates would be relatively stable over time and not vary dramatically by country but that is wildly not the case. Clearly lifestyle choices are a primary factor here but that is so taboo these days to even mention.
  - Groxx 4y ago
    While explicitly not trying to take a side: >If that were the case population level rates would be relatively stable over time and not vary dramatically by country but that is wildly not the case. That would be true if and only if the measurements were accurate and did not change by time or location. The measurement strategies have been changing dramatically in the past decades, and countries are almost universally in disagreement over the (significant) details. Wide variance in time and location are definitely expected, drawing a conclusion based on that is very much standing on shaky ground.
  - comfypotato 4y ago
    > If that we’re the case This isn’t necessarily true. There’s a wide variety of reasons for which diagnoses of mental illnesses would vary greatly. Equating Psychology to hard sciences is naive. It is the softest of sciences, but labeling it as non-science would be ridiculous. I personally think Psychiatrists in particular have one of the most difficult jobs as physicians. It’s made worse for patients by the fact that a poorly performing Psychiatrist has many scapegoats behind which to hide. Unfortunately I spend a lot of time around mentally ill folk, myself included. A good dose/choice of medication and a good therapist-client-match work modern miracles on people, and it’s very easy to see when you’re around it. It’s very similar to a surgery with a low success rate.
Lalabadie 4y ago
This is similar to saying a hiring interview is only discussion, and any acknowledgment of employee skills or hiring techniques is just bs managerial posturing.
- welshwelsh 4y ago
  Which it is. The idea that you can accurately gauge a person's skills during an interview is complete bullshit. And at the end of the day an interview is just a discussion, people are hired based on how they make the interviewer feel and it will be months before they discover if they are qualified or not.
  - jodrellblank 4y ago
    You can’t gauge them accurately in an interview, that doesn’t mean the skills themselves don’t exist. Storytelling is just discussion but that doesn’t mean stories don’t exist, or that all stories are the same, that everyone is an equally good story teller, etc.

I mean it 100% is ultimately discussion no matter how much one wants to shroud it in academic ivory tower BS.

by jjcon 4y ago

I mean it 100% is ultimately discussion no matter how much one wants to shroud it in academic ivory tower BS.

Pretty sure the vast majority of therapists have left the academic ivory tower and build their practice on years of secular experience but okay.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago

If we reduce it to an incredibly basic form, sure, in the same way that surgery is just ultimately stabbing with medical ivory tower BS.

jjcon 4y ago
If my surgeon had as much education as the average therapist does and surgery science had the replication crisis that therapy does I would call it exactly that: stabbing with medical ivory tower bs… thankfully that isn’t quite the case
- comfypotato 4y ago
  You’ve both labeled therapy as an ivory tower and implied therapists don’t have much education; that’s somewhat of a contradiction. What’s your purpose here? I think a much better analogy than surgery would be a software bootcamp. In the same sense that a classroom-oriented bootcamp is just discussion, therapy is just discussion. There’s no replication crisis for the greater umbrella question of whether or not therapy is effective. Therapy in combination with medication is provably more effective than either alone (or nothing).
  - jjcon 4y ago
    > You’ve both labeled therapy as an ivory tower and implied therapists don’t have much education; that’s somewhat of a contradiction. No contradiction - The problem isn't education obviously - its that some professions and disciplines are far more likely to produce pretentious ivory towers than others, that I have a problem with. Typically and ironically imo it is stronger in the soft sciences than the hard.
    - austinjp 4y ago
      Since you mention surgery as some sort of high-value comparator, surgical training favours people with some unpleasant personality traits [0] (apparently due to the stressful nature of the work), while surgery itself is a very powerful placebo [1]. This isn't to say that surgery or surgeons are evil and to be avoided. Not at all. It just adds nuance to the picture: the degree of training your healthcare professional receives is only one aspect of their job, albeit an important one. [0] https://doi.org/10.1308/rcsbull.2015.331 https://doi.org/10.1308/rcsbull.2015.331 [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6693073/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6693073/
      - baremetal 4y ago
        > surgical training favours people with some unpleasant personality traits Do I care what kind of personality my surgeon has? No. I care about his aptitude at his job.
        johnchristopher 4y ago
        Let's hope your surgeon personality doesn't help them too much with hiding their drug abuse problem if they have one then and that you are not the one going under the scalpel when they first start to lose it. > Alcohol and drug abuse are a significant issue among physicians in general and surgeons in particular. A recent 7000-member survey of the American College of Surgeons demonstrated a prevalence for alcohol abuse among male surgeons at 13.8% and for female surgeons at 25.4%. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/1107187 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstrac... This dictionary and factoid HN comment war thread makes me want to waste karma.
        comfypotato 4y ago
        If you feel like diving, I literally got a response from dang a few days ago after absolutely losing my shit in another thread. In that case, the results for myself were not positive, and I regret my actions. At least it was a first offense and I didn’t get banned. Generally, though, I feel HN is a good place to cathartically vent some heat. The limits/guidelines are set such that you can be aggressive without breaking them. You can add value in an aggressive tone. It’s like a city where the drivers are aggressive. Being kind, the first comment guideline, requires respect as opposed to syrupy fake facades. MMA fighters often respect each other, for example. This attitude is acknowledging the toxicity of anonymous internet culture and making the best of it. It’s an unhealthy place, but there’s value to be made/found. Are there any anonymous internet forums good for your mental health? I think not. Jjconn’s take that therapy is useless makes me mad, and they’re willing to yell about it. I have something to gain here by learning their perspective.

squeaky-clean 4y ago

No, therapy usually involves lots of homework as well. The talking part of it is essential to get there, but if you just go to therapy to talk it won't help much.

johndunne 4y ago

What makes you want to apply reductionism at level 100%. A discussion might help.

jjcon 4y ago
Because I think it is absurd and frankly ascientific how hard people cling to the idea that depression and anxiety are some biological or chemical body problem that is entirely outside their control. That it requires drugs or “special therapy techniques” to improve (Quite a useful narrative if your trying to sell those though) If that were the case population level rates would be relatively stable over time and not vary dramatically by country but that is wildly not the case. Clearly lifestyle choices are a primary factor here but that is so taboo these days to even mention.
- Groxx 4y ago
  While explicitly not trying to take a side: >If that were the case population level rates would be relatively stable over time and not vary dramatically by country but that is wildly not the case. That would be true if and only if the measurements were accurate and did not change by time or location. The measurement strategies have been changing dramatically in the past decades, and countries are almost universally in disagreement over the (significant) details. Wide variance in time and location are definitely expected, drawing a conclusion based on that is very much standing on shaky ground.
- comfypotato 4y ago
  > If that we’re the case This isn’t necessarily true. There’s a wide variety of reasons for which diagnoses of mental illnesses would vary greatly. Equating Psychology to hard sciences is naive. It is the softest of sciences, but labeling it as non-science would be ridiculous. I personally think Psychiatrists in particular have one of the most difficult jobs as physicians. It’s made worse for patients by the fact that a poorly performing Psychiatrist has many scapegoats behind which to hide. Unfortunately I spend a lot of time around mentally ill folk, myself included. A good dose/choice of medication and a good therapist-client-match work modern miracles on people, and it’s very easy to see when you’re around it. It’s very similar to a surgery with a low success rate.

Lalabadie 4y ago

This is similar to saying a hiring interview is only discussion, and any acknowledgment of employee skills or hiring techniques is just bs managerial posturing.

welshwelsh 4y ago
Which it is. The idea that you can accurately gauge a person's skills during an interview is complete bullshit. And at the end of the day an interview is just a discussion, people are hired based on how they make the interviewer feel and it will be months before they discover if they are qualified or not.
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  You can’t gauge them accurately in an interview, that doesn’t mean the skills themselves don’t exist. Storytelling is just discussion but that doesn’t mean stories don’t exist, or that all stories are the same, that everyone is an equally good story teller, etc.