4 ms·

>First, using Harvard as an example, 25-28% or so of the entering class is Asian. Given that Asians-Americans are about 6% of the US, this hardly smacks of syst

by Jiro 4y ago

>First, using Harvard as an example, 25-28% or so of the entering class is Asian. Given that Asians-Americans are about 6% of the US, this hardly smacks of systemic racism. Something doesn’t add up with this argument. There's a larger percentage than the whole population of the US, but a smaller percentage than the percentage who apply and have similar qualifications to accepted students who aren't Asian. What you're seeing is that Asian-Americans are better qualified, but not enough of them are accepted as one would expect from being better qualified.

csa 4y ago
> What you're seeing is that Asian-Americans are better qualified, but not enough of them are accepted as one would expect from being better qualified. Please reread my entire comment. I covered your thesis, and I am fairly certain that it is an inappropriate characterization of the reality. Specifically, every study I have seen that makes this claim determines that Asians are “more qualified” based exclusively on a comparison of SAT scores and/or grades. Grades and SAT scores are only one factor of many that are used in admissions decisions. As I have said before, some folks may not like that more than grades and SATs are used in admissions decisions, but that doesn’t make it any less true. Let me give you an example of a profile I see a lot: - 800 math 780 verbal on SAT. - Top 5 in class taking a strong academic curriculum. Not valedictorian because of a few differences of a + or - here and there attached to their straight As. - Played instrument in band and marching band for 4 years. - Wrote articles and took photos for school newspaper and yearbook. - Volunteer in school volunteer group that actually did some decent work. Using the guidelines in the link below, how would you rate this applicant? https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/types-of-students-admitted-to-harvard-requirements https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/type... 1. Academics — solid 2. Definitely not 1, since there is no indication of “genuine scholar” like published research or a Westinghouse award or something similar. 2. ECs - Squarely 3. Did some stuff, but no leadership or substantial impact. 3. PQ — Let’s say 2, but this could be a 3 if their school does not know how to write good recommendations for elite schools and/or if the applicant did not impress the right people. Note that there is nothing about low SES or other challenging conditions that might make them a solid 2 or even a 1. Frankly, in our case, it doesn’t matter. 4. Athletics — Marching band is basically a sport. Let’s say 3. If they were just in band, that would probably fall under ECs, and this might be a 5. Note that there is no expressed desire to be in the Harvard band, and there is no quality measure (like winning a competition) that suggests that they could be good enough, so 1 and 2 are out of the question. So… is this person an admit? Probably not. This is almost a perfect “standard strong” — nothing wrong with them, but nothing stands out. Note that their grades and scores only got them a 2 in academics, and there are a lot of other 2s out there in the applicant pool. They probably won’t get in unless they have some other highly desirable trait like geographic diversity, racial diversity, recruited athlete, director’s list, or child of faculty. Anyway, I hope that people stop perpetuating the myth that “better qualified Asians” are not being accepted. A more accurate statement is “asians with higher grades and SAT scores are not being accepted because they are not excelling in other areas that are explicitly mentioned as part of the evaluation process”. Note that those folks (Asians and otherwise) who have good grades and good SAT scores as well as excel in other areas are much more likely to be accepted.
- MrMan 4y ago
  this is chilling. thank you I guess for completely dropping any pretenses here. this system of well-roundedness was, as other people have alluded previously, invented to exclude high achieving ethnic groups ( as per the perception of the in-group ) from overrunning elite institutions of learning. this system is being employed to cap Asian admissions.
  - csa 4y ago
    See my other reply on this comment. There is no cap on Asian admissions, and there never will be. The Asians that get rejected at the margin have similar profiles to White people who are rejected at the margin. If you think that this is incorrect, then I would love to see some supporting evidence, There is an abundance of available info due to the lawsuit, and none of it seems to have pointed to discrimination against Asians. Diversity steps were taken by Eliot in the 1800s. Lowell took them in a dark direction, but he wasn’t the originator. https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-president-abbott-lowell-is-laughing-us-again/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-presi... I’m really saddened that so many people are quick to jump on the “Harvard bad” bandwagon without actually knowing the facts or the history. It an incredible story The current admissions process at this point is fairly refined, and the evaluation rubrics are public knowledge, and I think they do a fairly good job of getting the school the wide variety of students it needs.
- mvnuweucxqokii 4y ago
  > Grades and SAT scores are only one factor of many that are used in admissions decisions. The other factors were added specifically in order to give universities leeway to massage the demographics of the incoming class. IIRC this kind of holistic admission was invented specifically to be able to reject Jewish applicants who tended to be academically strong but less "well rounded" than WASPs. So ivies effectively put a cap on the Jewish quotient by creating the holistic system.
  - csa 4y ago
    Check out this article: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-president-abbott-lowell-is-laughing-us-again/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-presi... The original push for diversity was successfully implemented by Eliot (president before Lowell). Lowell definitely twisted the implementation and took it in a twisted direction (notable that his beliefs were more widely held than Eliot’s), but all of that was (relatively quickly) undone by Conant (president after Lowell), and a push toward more diversity in the manner of Eliot was continued.

by Jiro 4y ago

csa 4y ago

> What you're seeing is that Asian-Americans are better qualified, but not enough of them are accepted as one would expect from being better qualified. Please reread my entire comment. I covered your thesis, and I am fairly certain that it is an inappropriate characterization of the reality. Specifically, every study I have seen that makes this claim determines that Asians are “more qualified” based exclusively on a comparison of SAT scores and/or grades. Grades and SAT scores are only one factor of many that are used in admissions decisions. As I have said before, some folks may not like that more than grades and SATs are used in admissions decisions, but that doesn’t make it any less true. Let me give you an example of a profile I see a lot: - 800 math 780 verbal on SAT. - Top 5 in class taking a strong academic curriculum. Not valedictorian because of a few differences of a + or - here and there attached to their straight As. - Played instrument in band and marching band for 4 years. - Wrote articles and took photos for school newspaper and yearbook. - Volunteer in school volunteer group that actually did some decent work. Using the guidelines in the link below, how would you rate this applicant? https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/types-of-students-admitted-to-harvard-requirements https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/type... 1. Academics — solid 2. Definitely not 1, since there is no indication of “genuine scholar” like published research or a Westinghouse award or something similar. 2. ECs - Squarely 3. Did some stuff, but no leadership or substantial impact. 3. PQ — Let’s say 2, but this could be a 3 if their school does not know how to write good recommendations for elite schools and/or if the applicant did not impress the right people. Note that there is nothing about low SES or other challenging conditions that might make them a solid 2 or even a 1. Frankly, in our case, it doesn’t matter. 4. Athletics — Marching band is basically a sport. Let’s say 3. If they were just in band, that would probably fall under ECs, and this might be a 5. Note that there is no expressed desire to be in the Harvard band, and there is no quality measure (like winning a competition) that suggests that they could be good enough, so 1 and 2 are out of the question. So… is this person an admit? Probably not. This is almost a perfect “standard strong” — nothing wrong with them, but nothing stands out. Note that their grades and scores only got them a 2 in academics, and there are a lot of other 2s out there in the applicant pool. They probably won’t get in unless they have some other highly desirable trait like geographic diversity, racial diversity, recruited athlete, director’s list, or child of faculty. Anyway, I hope that people stop perpetuating the myth that “better qualified Asians” are not being accepted. A more accurate statement is “asians with higher grades and SAT scores are not being accepted because they are not excelling in other areas that are explicitly mentioned as part of the evaluation process”. Note that those folks (Asians and otherwise) who have good grades and good SAT scores as well as excel in other areas are much more likely to be accepted.

MrMan 4y ago
this is chilling. thank you I guess for completely dropping any pretenses here. this system of well-roundedness was, as other people have alluded previously, invented to exclude high achieving ethnic groups ( as per the perception of the in-group ) from overrunning elite institutions of learning. this system is being employed to cap Asian admissions.
- csa 4y ago
  See my other reply on this comment. There is no cap on Asian admissions, and there never will be. The Asians that get rejected at the margin have similar profiles to White people who are rejected at the margin. If you think that this is incorrect, then I would love to see some supporting evidence, There is an abundance of available info due to the lawsuit, and none of it seems to have pointed to discrimination against Asians. Diversity steps were taken by Eliot in the 1800s. Lowell took them in a dark direction, but he wasn’t the originator. https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-president-abbott-lowell-is-laughing-us-again/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-presi... I’m really saddened that so many people are quick to jump on the “Harvard bad” bandwagon without actually knowing the facts or the history. It an incredible story The current admissions process at this point is fairly refined, and the evaluation rubrics are public knowledge, and I think they do a fairly good job of getting the school the wide variety of students it needs.
mvnuweucxqokii 4y ago
> Grades and SAT scores are only one factor of many that are used in admissions decisions. The other factors were added specifically in order to give universities leeway to massage the demographics of the incoming class. IIRC this kind of holistic admission was invented specifically to be able to reject Jewish applicants who tended to be academically strong but less "well rounded" than WASPs. So ivies effectively put a cap on the Jewish quotient by creating the holistic system.
- csa 4y ago
  Check out this article: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-president-abbott-lowell-is-laughing-us-again/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-presi... The original push for diversity was successfully implemented by Eliot (president before Lowell). Lowell definitely twisted the implementation and took it in a twisted direction (notable that his beliefs were more widely held than Eliot’s), but all of that was (relatively quickly) undone by Conant (president after Lowell), and a push toward more diversity in the manner of Eliot was continued.