8 ms·

Yes it is unreasonable, because depression is not an “attitude”.

by girvo 4y ago

pjerem 4y ago
Well, you are right that depression is not an attitude. It's a disease, a malfunction. But like any other disease, it can happen from or be aggravated by external factors. If you are, to some degree, predisposed to depression, you are more likely to aggravate or trigger it by living in an hostile environment than if you are living your dream life. It's like being predisposed to cardiovascular diseases : even if you are predisposed, you are more likely to not have any issue if you never encounter stress, eat healthy and have an active life. Saying depression can be contagious by no means implies that depression is an attitude and not a disease.
- girvo 4y ago
  While you and I know that, literally up and down this thread are dozens of commenters who do not, and seem to think it is indeed just an “attitude”. Or that being sad is the same as being depressed.
wjnc 4y ago
Same question but without the DSM-5 diagnosis? I do recognize that work cultures differ and that people after a few years internalize the work culture. Some firms have massively worse performance on absence, sickness and probably all other kinds of metrics related to well being. So my prior would be one of “totally true”. But keeping an open mind. The same set of observations could fit other explanations like that extraverts with people skills switch jobs more often and that there is clustering of likewise individuals on certain negative traits.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mantas 4y ago
Clinical depression is not an attitude. But in vast majority of cases some attitudes was the cause.
- cies 4y ago
  So we should help identify and fix attitudes, instead of "anti-depressing" them with medication -- sounds plausible.
  - mantas 4y ago
    Yes. Anti-depressants is just to give the initial lift out of a very dark place. They won’t cure anything.
- kar5pt 4y ago
  This is not true. The cognitive model of depression has been debunked: https://theconversation.com/cbt-is-wrong-in-how-it-understands-mental-illness-175943 https://theconversation.com/cbt-is-wrong-in-how-it-understan...
  - mantas 4y ago
    You’re wrong. Your own article says that CBT does work. I’m not a big believer in CBT, but I know for sure antidepressants, as they are used nowadays, is one massive scam. For the record, I do support antidepressants usage to get out of very dark place initially. But they do not cure it. We as a society need to put safety nets in place to make sure people don’t fall into those very dark places. Depression is not a virus or bacteria. It’s a socially spreading disease. But we need attitudes instead of masks to stop it. Attitudes held by both patients and surrounding people.
    - kar5pt 4y ago
      Did you even read the article? CBT and the cognitive model are not the same thing. CBT (the therapy) works, but that doesn't mean the underlying theory is correct. "Not only is there contrary evidence showing problems with reasoning are widespread as well as potentially associated with mental health rather than mental disorder. But the evidence in favour of CBT’s take on mental illness is tainted because the tests used in these studies do not even track problems with reasoning. CBT provides a compelling story about mental illness – mental illness is associated with “faulty” reasoning, and in resolving this, negative behaviour and emotions are addressed. Unfortunately, research doesn’t quite back up this story."
Negitivefrags 4y ago
Clearly it's possible for depression to be affected by discussion with people around you. If that were not possible, then how could therapy have an effect?
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  > Clearly it's possible for depression to be affected by discussion with people around you. > If that were not possible, then how could therapy have an effect? Because therapy is more than discussion.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    I think it does depressed people a disservice to refuse to accept the possibility that depression might be contagious, in order to protect them from being demeaned.
    - ineedasername 4y ago
      Yes. There's a reason there are support groups for people (spouses etc) who are close to people with chronic depression and other mental illnesses. Because it has an impact of the people around a person afflicted with these illnesses.
      - wiz21c 4y ago
        If A has hard time supporting/coping with B's anxiety, the it means that A has already too much anxiety. If I go in a company and others are receptive to my anxiety, then it means anxiety is rampant in that company. In my country burn out and alikes are increasing very rapidly (like 3x in 10 years). So I believe that the articles says that when your are tired, you're more likely to catch the flu. It's not the flu that is strong, it's the other's that more fragile. And as someone who got through the burnout big time, I can assure you that this article will be misread. HR depts I have seen have a long way to go before they understand that burn out damages should be put on shoulders on the employee as well as the employer.
cm2012 4y ago
Most human behaviors are contagious to some extent - depression, obesity, definitely anorexia, etc.
joshuamcginnis 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference
leonidasv 4y ago
Sure, but it has triggers. What if those actions act as a trigger for other pre-disposed people?
smohare 4y ago
[dead]
ipaddr 4y ago
depressed people does not mean clinical depression
lumb63 4y ago
Call depression what you want, but I don’t agree that it is not contagious, along with some other mental illnesses (e.g. anxiety). They’re not “contagious” in the sense that you will receive a clinical diagnosis for depression immediately after being around someone depressed, but I think it is naive to think others are not impacted by their interactions with depressed people. A few of my family members struggle with depression and also with anxiety. I love them dearly, but spending too much time with them can ruin my mood. It is exhausting to try to be upbeat around someone who is depressed; in my experience, they win, and I am dragged into sadness as well. Similarly, it is stressful to be around someone who suffers from anxiety. It is widely accepted that mental illnesses like depression and anxiety are positive feedback loops. I don’t know why the same traits that make them so would not be able to impact others.
- wildrhythms 4y ago
  You are addressing the effect rather than the cause: Simply removing an anxious person from the workplace won't solve the underlying reasons why that person became anxious or depressed at work in the first place. If you went on a crusade and fired all of the anxious workers, do you contend that will stop the 'spread' of anxiousness among your employees? I certainly don't think so.
- lynx23 4y ago
  Reminds me of a somewhat related proverb: "Never argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level, and then win through experience." Of course, I am not implying that people with depression are stupid.
- AussieWog93 4y ago
  You don't even need to have mentally ill family members to see how contagious depression and anxiety can be. Just spend the morning on Reddit (or even HN!) and notice how your entire outlook changes.
  - sammalloy 4y ago
    Environment and suggestibility could explain the contagion hypothesis. There really needs to be a close proximity to the source; this means that online content isn’t really going to spread it. You need to be physically located in the environment near the people with depression and anxiety. Also, you have to be easily socially suggestible and open to the input of others, on the level of mirroring and the chameleon effect. Example: I worked for a boss with depression and anxiety. It never rubbed off on me, but his wife was highly suggestible and she seemed to mirror his foibles and idiosyncrasies. I don’t know if I would go as far as the conclusions of the Rat Park experiment, but there is something to be said for a healthy, safe, and nurturing environment.
_8j50 4y ago
Yes but an attitude adjustment can affect not just that but other well established and chronic diseases. People can literally attiude themselves to death, you can focus your mind enough with a death wishing attitude and you would just die, doctors will tell you that a patient with a good attitude stands a better chance at fighting any disease than a patient with a bad attitude. Your attitude is set in your brain which regulates different chemicals and hormones. When you see an attractive person you get chemicals to make your body react, when your brain thinks it's in danger you get adrenaline,etc... is it so unreasonable for depression to be at least helped or harmed (not caused) by pursuing a good attitude? Also , I like to think it isn't the attitude that is spreading but that depressed people help set an environment that cultivates depression whether by stress, lack of communication, bad communication,etc... depression wouldn't exactly be the first disease to be caused or affected by the environment a person spends their time in.
lazide 4y ago
If depression can be caused (in at least some cases) by external factors like their environments (which is well supported), and people’s attitudes impact other people’s environments, then guess what - it can be contagious.
steponlego 4y ago
Chemical imbalance theory is looking to be bullshit actually.
- Scandiravian 4y ago
  I'm curious about this. Do you have some sources you could share? Would like to learn more about this

Yes it is unreasonable, because depression is not an “attitude”.

by girvo 4y ago

Yes it is unreasonable, because depression is not an “attitude”.

Well, you are right that depression is not an attitude. It's a disease, a malfunction. But like any other disease, it can happen from or be aggravated by external factors. If you are, to some degree, predisposed to depression, you are more likely to aggravate or trigger it by living in an hostile environment than if you are living your dream life. It's like being predisposed to cardiovascular diseases : even if you are predisposed, you are more likely to not have any issue if you never encounter stress, eat healthy and have an active life. Saying depression can be contagious by no means implies that depression is an attitude and not a disease.

girvo 4y ago
While you and I know that, literally up and down this thread are dozens of commenters who do not, and seem to think it is indeed just an “attitude”. Or that being sad is the same as being depressed.

wjnc 4y ago

Same question but without the DSM-5 diagnosis? I do recognize that work cultures differ and that people after a few years internalize the work culture. Some firms have massively worse performance on absence, sickness and probably all other kinds of metrics related to well being. So my prior would be one of “totally true”. But keeping an open mind. The same set of observations could fit other explanations like that extraverts with people skills switch jobs more often and that there is clustering of likewise individuals on certain negative traits.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mantas 4y ago

Clinical depression is not an attitude. But in vast majority of cases some attitudes was the cause.

cies 4y ago
So we should help identify and fix attitudes, instead of "anti-depressing" them with medication -- sounds plausible.
- mantas 4y ago
  Yes. Anti-depressants is just to give the initial lift out of a very dark place. They won’t cure anything.
kar5pt 4y ago
This is not true. The cognitive model of depression has been debunked: https://theconversation.com/cbt-is-wrong-in-how-it-understands-mental-illness-175943 https://theconversation.com/cbt-is-wrong-in-how-it-understan...
- mantas 4y ago
  You’re wrong. Your own article says that CBT does work. I’m not a big believer in CBT, but I know for sure antidepressants, as they are used nowadays, is one massive scam. For the record, I do support antidepressants usage to get out of very dark place initially. But they do not cure it. We as a society need to put safety nets in place to make sure people don’t fall into those very dark places. Depression is not a virus or bacteria. It’s a socially spreading disease. But we need attitudes instead of masks to stop it. Attitudes held by both patients and surrounding people.
  - kar5pt 4y ago
    Did you even read the article? CBT and the cognitive model are not the same thing. CBT (the therapy) works, but that doesn't mean the underlying theory is correct. "Not only is there contrary evidence showing problems with reasoning are widespread as well as potentially associated with mental health rather than mental disorder. But the evidence in favour of CBT’s take on mental illness is tainted because the tests used in these studies do not even track problems with reasoning. CBT provides a compelling story about mental illness – mental illness is associated with “faulty” reasoning, and in resolving this, negative behaviour and emotions are addressed. Unfortunately, research doesn’t quite back up this story."

Negitivefrags 4y ago

Clearly it's possible for depression to be affected by discussion with people around you. If that were not possible, then how could therapy have an effect?

johnchristopher 4y ago
> Clearly it's possible for depression to be affected by discussion with people around you. > If that were not possible, then how could therapy have an effect? Because therapy is more than discussion.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  I think it does depressed people a disservice to refuse to accept the possibility that depression might be contagious, in order to protect them from being demeaned.
  - ineedasername 4y ago
    Yes. There's a reason there are support groups for people (spouses etc) who are close to people with chronic depression and other mental illnesses. Because it has an impact of the people around a person afflicted with these illnesses.
    - wiz21c 4y ago
      If A has hard time supporting/coping with B's anxiety, the it means that A has already too much anxiety. If I go in a company and others are receptive to my anxiety, then it means anxiety is rampant in that company. In my country burn out and alikes are increasing very rapidly (like 3x in 10 years). So I believe that the articles says that when your are tired, you're more likely to catch the flu. It's not the flu that is strong, it's the other's that more fragile. And as someone who got through the burnout big time, I can assure you that this article will be misread. HR depts I have seen have a long way to go before they understand that burn out damages should be put on shoulders on the employee as well as the employer.

cm2012 4y ago

Most human behaviors are contagious to some extent - depression, obesity, definitely anorexia, etc.

joshuamcginnis 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

leonidasv 4y ago

Sure, but it has triggers. What if those actions act as a trigger for other pre-disposed people?

smohare 4y ago

[dead]

ipaddr 4y ago

depressed people does not mean clinical depression

lumb63 4y ago

Call depression what you want, but I don’t agree that it is not contagious, along with some other mental illnesses (e.g. anxiety). They’re not “contagious” in the sense that you will receive a clinical diagnosis for depression immediately after being around someone depressed, but I think it is naive to think others are not impacted by their interactions with depressed people. A few of my family members struggle with depression and also with anxiety. I love them dearly, but spending too much time with them can ruin my mood. It is exhausting to try to be upbeat around someone who is depressed; in my experience, they win, and I am dragged into sadness as well. Similarly, it is stressful to be around someone who suffers from anxiety. It is widely accepted that mental illnesses like depression and anxiety are positive feedback loops. I don’t know why the same traits that make them so would not be able to impact others.

wildrhythms 4y ago
You are addressing the effect rather than the cause: Simply removing an anxious person from the workplace won't solve the underlying reasons why that person became anxious or depressed at work in the first place. If you went on a crusade and fired all of the anxious workers, do you contend that will stop the 'spread' of anxiousness among your employees? I certainly don't think so.
lynx23 4y ago
Reminds me of a somewhat related proverb: "Never argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level, and then win through experience." Of course, I am not implying that people with depression are stupid.
AussieWog93 4y ago
You don't even need to have mentally ill family members to see how contagious depression and anxiety can be. Just spend the morning on Reddit (or even HN!) and notice how your entire outlook changes.
- sammalloy 4y ago
  Environment and suggestibility could explain the contagion hypothesis. There really needs to be a close proximity to the source; this means that online content isn’t really going to spread it. You need to be physically located in the environment near the people with depression and anxiety. Also, you have to be easily socially suggestible and open to the input of others, on the level of mirroring and the chameleon effect. Example: I worked for a boss with depression and anxiety. It never rubbed off on me, but his wife was highly suggestible and she seemed to mirror his foibles and idiosyncrasies. I don’t know if I would go as far as the conclusions of the Rat Park experiment, but there is something to be said for a healthy, safe, and nurturing environment.

_8j50 4y ago

Yes but an attitude adjustment can affect not just that but other well established and chronic diseases. People can literally attiude themselves to death, you can focus your mind enough with a death wishing attitude and you would just die, doctors will tell you that a patient with a good attitude stands a better chance at fighting any disease than a patient with a bad attitude. Your attitude is set in your brain which regulates different chemicals and hormones. When you see an attractive person you get chemicals to make your body react, when your brain thinks it's in danger you get adrenaline,etc... is it so unreasonable for depression to be at least helped or harmed (not caused) by pursuing a good attitude? Also , I like to think it isn't the attitude that is spreading but that depressed people help set an environment that cultivates depression whether by stress, lack of communication, bad communication,etc... depression wouldn't exactly be the first disease to be caused or affected by the environment a person spends their time in.

lazide 4y ago

If depression can be caused (in at least some cases) by external factors like their environments (which is well supported), and people’s attitudes impact other people’s environments, then guess what - it can be contagious.

steponlego 4y ago

Chemical imbalance theory is looking to be bullshit actually.

Scandiravian 4y ago
I'm curious about this. Do you have some sources you could share? Would like to learn more about this