4 ms·

How about harmful tools with no practical uses to the general public? Mortars, tanks, ketamine, ICBM GPS units… You’re taking an absolutist position, so I’d li

by ip26 4y ago

How about harmful tools with no practical uses to the general public? Mortars, tanks, ketamine, ICBM GPS units… You’re taking an absolutist position, so I’d like to explore it.

M4v3R 4y ago
Curious that you’ve put ketamine, a well known anesthetic used primary by the vets but recently also used in depression treatment [1], in that list of “harmful tools with no practical uses”. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine-assisted_psychotherapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine-assisted_psychotherap...
- ip26 4y ago
  Vets and psychotherapists are not “the general public”. Every item I listed has a clear and valuable purpose, but only in specific contexts.
  - M4v3R 4y ago
    Yeah I would consider pet owners and people with depression (so groups of people that benefit from this specific tool) a part of general public, both are fairly large groups.
    - ip26 4y ago
      And ketamine is employed by trained professionals appropriately in veterinary hospitals and psychotherapy contexts. The public does not need unregulated access to ketamine for this to happen.
      - neural_thing 4y ago
        Computers are employed by trained professionals appropriately in military contexts. The public does not need access to computers for this to happen.
        bigDinosaur 4y ago
        There's no task I cannot complete without ketamine, except for the consumption of ketamine itself. Without a computer I cannot perform my job, nor basically perform any modern professional job.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - mindslight 4y ago
        This framing is terribly paternalistic. If a person is taking a drug, they themselves are who is possessing and using it. They aren't some mere passive subject for doctors to be acting on. Furthermore, they shouldn't be forced to convince some doctor-bureaucrat they have some specific medical condition, or even a "medical condition" at all, to be allowed the treatment they'd like to try.
  - dns_snek 4y ago
    Even so, I don't believe it deserves to be on that list. It's not inherently harmful and it has a clear practical purpose - (responsible) recreational drug use. It allows individuals to explore various states of human consciousness which I consider an extension of the fundamental right to bodily autonomy.
influx 4y ago
If you're open for exploration, what are your thoughts on organisms rights to self defense? What level of self defense should they be able to have if another organism is trying to end their life?
- ip26 4y ago
  There is a tension between the need to level the playing field and the need to minimize the harm potential. For example, land mines, machine gun emplacements, and chemical weapons can be effective forms of home defense. An intruder would have access to the same equipment, but at least the playing field is level, right? However, an attacker would also be able to inflict astounding mass casualties in moments with this equipment. On the other side, if the most effective self defense weapon available is a kitchen knife, the playing field is not very level, and a weak victim can be overpowered by an attacker or intruder. However, the ability to inflict mass casualty is greatly limited. So, I don’t have a specific level to prescribe, but I would start the discussion by framing the decision as a balance between these two elements.
  - influx 4y ago
    I appreciate the thought you've put into this, and I tend to agree. Ideally, a weaker person would be able to use a tool to provide self defense in the most limited way possible without causing harm or damage to anyone other than the attacker. Unfortunately the tools we have currently aren't great at that.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      > Ideally, a weaker person would be able to use a tool to provide self defense in the most limited way possible without causing harm or damage to anyone other than the attacker. Landmines in the garden it is then. Hard to use offensively.
      - Thiez 4y ago
        A shame if a child that accidentally threw a ball in your garden steps on them, or even just the overweight neighbours cat. Or a visitor stumbles on them duling a bbq. But such casualties are apparently a small price to pay for feeling safe.
int_19h 4y ago
FWIW mortars and tanks are legal for the general public to own in US, although it does involve a bunch of forms and tax stamps if they're operable. It doesn't seem to be a problem in practice, though - at least, I've never heard of a legally owned tank or mortar being used for criminal or other harmful purposes.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ilyt 4y ago
Well, tanks and mortars might've moved the scales on Emu War in favour of australians
AnthonyMouse 4y ago
People are going to bog you down listing all the practical everyday uses for weapons-grade plutonium, but let's try a different tack. Stipulate for sake of argument that there is something dangerous with no beneficial civilian use, so you want to ban it. But there is public demand for the thing, or a lot of people just hate you banning things and will make every effort to thwart you. Sellers split the item into parts so none of them individually is the completed item but anyone can buy them and stick them together. So you pass a law that says the "lower bit" is the part that's banned, and they can't sell that part. People start selling "80% lower bits" or whatever the nearest not-illegal thing is that can be converted into it. 3D print files for the part appear on the internet, or detailed instructions for how to manufacture one yourself. What now? Ban 3D printers and CNC machines? Ban anonymous communications or encrypted communications with anyone outside the jurisdiction, so people can't distribute the parts files? Now you're banning things with beneficial public uses. But if anybody can easily reproduce the thing the thing then the ban is ineffective.
- flir 4y ago
  What's wrong with making manufacture and possession illegal?
  - chipsa 4y ago
    How well did the war on booze go? How well is the war on drugs going?
    - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
      And to be more specific, possession and home production are difficult to detect, so enforcement will be ineffective or highly invasive or both. Victimless crime laws erode citizens' respect for the law and government respect for citizens' privacy. That's what's wrong with them.

by ip26 4y ago

How about harmful tools with no practical uses to the general public? Mortars, tanks, ketamine, ICBM GPS units… You’re taking an absolutist position, so I’d like to explore it.

M4v3R 4y ago

Curious that you’ve put ketamine, a well known anesthetic used primary by the vets but recently also used in depression treatment [1], in that list of “harmful tools with no practical uses”. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine-assisted_psychotherapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine-assisted_psychotherap...

ip26 4y ago
Vets and psychotherapists are not “the general public”. Every item I listed has a clear and valuable purpose, but only in specific contexts.
- M4v3R 4y ago
  Yeah I would consider pet owners and people with depression (so groups of people that benefit from this specific tool) a part of general public, both are fairly large groups.
  - ip26 4y ago
    And ketamine is employed by trained professionals appropriately in veterinary hospitals and psychotherapy contexts. The public does not need unregulated access to ketamine for this to happen.
    - neural_thing 4y ago
      Computers are employed by trained professionals appropriately in military contexts. The public does not need access to computers for this to happen.
      - bigDinosaur 4y ago
        There's no task I cannot complete without ketamine, except for the consumption of ketamine itself. Without a computer I cannot perform my job, nor basically perform any modern professional job.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - mindslight 4y ago
      This framing is terribly paternalistic. If a person is taking a drug, they themselves are who is possessing and using it. They aren't some mere passive subject for doctors to be acting on. Furthermore, they shouldn't be forced to convince some doctor-bureaucrat they have some specific medical condition, or even a "medical condition" at all, to be allowed the treatment they'd like to try.
- dns_snek 4y ago
  Even so, I don't believe it deserves to be on that list. It's not inherently harmful and it has a clear practical purpose - (responsible) recreational drug use. It allows individuals to explore various states of human consciousness which I consider an extension of the fundamental right to bodily autonomy.

influx 4y ago

If you're open for exploration, what are your thoughts on organisms rights to self defense? What level of self defense should they be able to have if another organism is trying to end their life?

ip26 4y ago
There is a tension between the need to level the playing field and the need to minimize the harm potential. For example, land mines, machine gun emplacements, and chemical weapons can be effective forms of home defense. An intruder would have access to the same equipment, but at least the playing field is level, right? However, an attacker would also be able to inflict astounding mass casualties in moments with this equipment. On the other side, if the most effective self defense weapon available is a kitchen knife, the playing field is not very level, and a weak victim can be overpowered by an attacker or intruder. However, the ability to inflict mass casualty is greatly limited. So, I don’t have a specific level to prescribe, but I would start the discussion by framing the decision as a balance between these two elements.
- influx 4y ago
  I appreciate the thought you've put into this, and I tend to agree. Ideally, a weaker person would be able to use a tool to provide self defense in the most limited way possible without causing harm or damage to anyone other than the attacker. Unfortunately the tools we have currently aren't great at that.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    > Ideally, a weaker person would be able to use a tool to provide self defense in the most limited way possible without causing harm or damage to anyone other than the attacker. Landmines in the garden it is then. Hard to use offensively.
    - Thiez 4y ago
      A shame if a child that accidentally threw a ball in your garden steps on them, or even just the overweight neighbours cat. Or a visitor stumbles on them duling a bbq. But such casualties are apparently a small price to pay for feeling safe.

int_19h 4y ago

FWIW mortars and tanks are legal for the general public to own in US, although it does involve a bunch of forms and tax stamps if they're operable. It doesn't seem to be a problem in practice, though - at least, I've never heard of a legally owned tank or mortar being used for criminal or other harmful purposes.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ilyt 4y ago

Well, tanks and mortars might've moved the scales on Emu War in favour of australians

AnthonyMouse 4y ago

People are going to bog you down listing all the practical everyday uses for weapons-grade plutonium, but let's try a different tack. Stipulate for sake of argument that there is something dangerous with no beneficial civilian use, so you want to ban it. But there is public demand for the thing, or a lot of people just hate you banning things and will make every effort to thwart you. Sellers split the item into parts so none of them individually is the completed item but anyone can buy them and stick them together. So you pass a law that says the "lower bit" is the part that's banned, and they can't sell that part. People start selling "80% lower bits" or whatever the nearest not-illegal thing is that can be converted into it. 3D print files for the part appear on the internet, or detailed instructions for how to manufacture one yourself. What now? Ban 3D printers and CNC machines? Ban anonymous communications or encrypted communications with anyone outside the jurisdiction, so people can't distribute the parts files? Now you're banning things with beneficial public uses. But if anybody can easily reproduce the thing the thing then the ban is ineffective.

flir 4y ago
What's wrong with making manufacture and possession illegal?
- chipsa 4y ago
  How well did the war on booze go? How well is the war on drugs going?
  - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
    And to be more specific, possession and home production are difficult to detect, so enforcement will be ineffective or highly invasive or both. Victimless crime laws erode citizens' respect for the law and government respect for citizens' privacy. That's what's wrong with them.