6 ms·

Are there any other industries that do this? Do cabinet makers ask you to do like a full day of work for free?

FeistySkink 4y ago
I can totally see this: can you whip up a quick breadbox while we stand here and comment on your every move? You've got to use our toolbox, work with unfamiliar materials and no measurements are allowed. You've got one hour. Oh, and we'll keep throwing in new requirements along the way.
- roflyear 4y ago
  I'm not even trying to touch on the "in person interview" stuff, more of the take home and spend like 8-16hrs on the project type stuff. Which is just crazy. That's more like "build me this table to get the job" type of thing.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  That would be reasonable if you were hiring an employee, since they would have to work in your workshop with your tools. Of course many carpenters work as contractors so that's why it seems a bit silly.
CSMastermind 4y ago
Of course. My buddy just got a job at a high-end cocktail bar as a bartender. Part of the interview process was asking him to mix a drink. Gordon Ramsay has talked about how he'll interview chefs by asking them to make scrambled eggs. Actors, even famous ones, generally have to 'read' for roles in order to land them. Musicians interview for seats in symphonies by playing music. MBAs have to do case studies to land jobs at high end consulting firms. Hell I applied to Taco Bell as a kid and they made me take a short math test to prove I knew how to make change. I could give similar examples for dozens of other jobs. The cases where you don't need to demonstrate some skill in order to get the job generally fall into a few categories: - There's some outside certifying body like the Bar, CPA, PE, various tradesmen unions, or all the licenses like a CDL. - The jobs are undifferentiated so the workers are fungible (no special skills required). - Job skill is immediately apparent (less than two weeks to know for certain if someone can do the job or not). - The cost of a bad hire is low so you're willing to eat the cost and just cut the workers how don't work out.
- roflyear 4y ago
  The difference is it doesn't take 8 hours to make a drink or scramble eggs, it takes as long as an interview usually takes. So the equiv. there is not a take home project, it is a in-person coding question. Or getting them behind an IDE and having them type some stuff. Lately it seems take home projects are more and more common and these do take 8+ hours. If you want the job.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  I don't think many of those are 4+ hours. Famous actors are not made to wait 4 hours to read lines, for example.
crabbone 4y ago
Engineering and medicine require a lot more investment to get the job. Especially medicine. It's a lot more regimented, but to put things in perspective: to be hired by a hospital, a doctor needs to do stage (few months in rotations between different departments) and then residency (36-hour shifts with 12-hour sleep intervals for a few years). And then they become attending, maybe will try for a fellow, but, basically, they become a "proper" doctor, and get a permanent contract from a hospital. Sure, the procedure varies between countries and hospitals, but the process is a lot lengthier and exhausting than anything you can possibly face in programming. Hell, even karate kid punching trees with bare hands for a year fades in comparison.
- strus 4y ago
  You described a process required to became a doctor, not to get a job at a hospital. You don't need to do any of this when you want to move to a different place.
  - crabbone 4y ago
    Not true. Here's what happens if you want to move to a "different place". Say, you go to a different country: you have to spend upwards from a few month, but likely few years to confirm your degree. You won't need a stage, but you will not become an attending right away. In many cases there aren't even analogous positions if you move countries, unless medical systems are very similar, so, in most likelihood you will have to do at least a good chunk of residency training all over again. This will also be usually compounded by studying a new language to a very high degree as doctors are expected to produce a lot of written reports / engage in written communication, and, unlike programmers who almost universally use English regardless of the country they work in, doctors absolutely have to have good command of the local language(s). Similarly, if you move between different medical organizations which manage hospitals. Sans the language requirements. However, within the same country hospitals will usually be more similar than between countries. Anyways, most hospitals will have fixed dates when job applications are processed, and even if you are extremely lucky and you don't need to redo any of your previous residency (both systems use the same PACS system, same or very similar internal organization etc.) you will still have to wait until the "draft" date. Typically, and due to competition, doctors will go to the hospital they intend to work at anyways before the "draft" date. Even within the same hospital, if you want to move to a different department, you will still do residency, at least in part. I.e. say, you were already an attending in internal medicine, and you want to move to radiology: then maybe instead of 4 years, you'll do 3 years residency. ---- The above has a lot of compounding factors. Huge waiting times to get a position lead to doctors holding on to their positions with a lot more devotion than programmers. In many cases it's a job for life. Because hospitals have to be in geographically diverse areas, they cannot, like programmers, all bunch together in one or two cities in a country and jump jobs w/o moving to a different apartment / house. A lot of hospitals thus include accommodation programs, which make it even harder to switch jobs. It's very common for doctors to marry doctors. This makes some things easier, but it also means that if you need to switch jobs, then you have to do it in lockstep with your spouse. Not in the least, if you move from a "less prestigious" country to a "more prestigious" country, you are almost automatically downgraded in your rank, and if you want the equivalent job, you'll have to jump through the same hoops the second time.
bombolo 4y ago
Academia will easily ask you to do a lecture.
- roflyear 4y ago
  To real students? How long of a lecture? Do they pay you if to real students?
  - bombolo 4y ago
    A real full lenght lecture, not to students but to peers. Not paid.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Academia also has the concept of tenure, which is basically "you're evaluated each year and easily fired" - if they don't like you you don't come back. This makes sense to me! How long is the lecture? 1hr? That doesn't sound bad compared to a 20hr programming assignment!!

I can totally see this: can you whip up a quick breadbox while we stand here and comment on your every move? You've got to use our toolbox, work with unfamiliar materials and no measurements are allowed. You've got one hour. Oh, and we'll keep throwing in new requirements along the way.

roflyear 4y ago
I'm not even trying to touch on the "in person interview" stuff, more of the take home and spend like 8-16hrs on the project type stuff. Which is just crazy. That's more like "build me this table to get the job" type of thing.
zeroonetwothree 4y ago
That would be reasonable if you were hiring an employee, since they would have to work in your workshop with your tools. Of course many carpenters work as contractors so that's why it seems a bit silly.

CSMastermind 4y ago

Of course. My buddy just got a job at a high-end cocktail bar as a bartender. Part of the interview process was asking him to mix a drink. Gordon Ramsay has talked about how he'll interview chefs by asking them to make scrambled eggs. Actors, even famous ones, generally have to 'read' for roles in order to land them. Musicians interview for seats in symphonies by playing music. MBAs have to do case studies to land jobs at high end consulting firms. Hell I applied to Taco Bell as a kid and they made me take a short math test to prove I knew how to make change. I could give similar examples for dozens of other jobs. The cases where you don't need to demonstrate some skill in order to get the job generally fall into a few categories: - There's some outside certifying body like the Bar, CPA, PE, various tradesmen unions, or all the licenses like a CDL. - The jobs are undifferentiated so the workers are fungible (no special skills required). - Job skill is immediately apparent (less than two weeks to know for certain if someone can do the job or not). - The cost of a bad hire is low so you're willing to eat the cost and just cut the workers how don't work out.

roflyear 4y ago
The difference is it doesn't take 8 hours to make a drink or scramble eggs, it takes as long as an interview usually takes. So the equiv. there is not a take home project, it is a in-person coding question. Or getting them behind an IDE and having them type some stuff. Lately it seems take home projects are more and more common and these do take 8+ hours. If you want the job.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I don't think many of those are 4+ hours. Famous actors are not made to wait 4 hours to read lines, for example.

crabbone 4y ago

Engineering and medicine require a lot more investment to get the job. Especially medicine. It's a lot more regimented, but to put things in perspective: to be hired by a hospital, a doctor needs to do stage (few months in rotations between different departments) and then residency (36-hour shifts with 12-hour sleep intervals for a few years). And then they become attending, maybe will try for a fellow, but, basically, they become a "proper" doctor, and get a permanent contract from a hospital. Sure, the procedure varies between countries and hospitals, but the process is a lot lengthier and exhausting than anything you can possibly face in programming. Hell, even karate kid punching trees with bare hands for a year fades in comparison.

strus 4y ago
You described a process required to became a doctor, not to get a job at a hospital. You don't need to do any of this when you want to move to a different place.
- crabbone 4y ago
  Not true. Here's what happens if you want to move to a "different place". Say, you go to a different country: you have to spend upwards from a few month, but likely few years to confirm your degree. You won't need a stage, but you will not become an attending right away. In many cases there aren't even analogous positions if you move countries, unless medical systems are very similar, so, in most likelihood you will have to do at least a good chunk of residency training all over again. This will also be usually compounded by studying a new language to a very high degree as doctors are expected to produce a lot of written reports / engage in written communication, and, unlike programmers who almost universally use English regardless of the country they work in, doctors absolutely have to have good command of the local language(s). Similarly, if you move between different medical organizations which manage hospitals. Sans the language requirements. However, within the same country hospitals will usually be more similar than between countries. Anyways, most hospitals will have fixed dates when job applications are processed, and even if you are extremely lucky and you don't need to redo any of your previous residency (both systems use the same PACS system, same or very similar internal organization etc.) you will still have to wait until the "draft" date. Typically, and due to competition, doctors will go to the hospital they intend to work at anyways before the "draft" date. Even within the same hospital, if you want to move to a different department, you will still do residency, at least in part. I.e. say, you were already an attending in internal medicine, and you want to move to radiology: then maybe instead of 4 years, you'll do 3 years residency. ---- The above has a lot of compounding factors. Huge waiting times to get a position lead to doctors holding on to their positions with a lot more devotion than programmers. In many cases it's a job for life. Because hospitals have to be in geographically diverse areas, they cannot, like programmers, all bunch together in one or two cities in a country and jump jobs w/o moving to a different apartment / house. A lot of hospitals thus include accommodation programs, which make it even harder to switch jobs. It's very common for doctors to marry doctors. This makes some things easier, but it also means that if you need to switch jobs, then you have to do it in lockstep with your spouse. Not in the least, if you move from a "less prestigious" country to a "more prestigious" country, you are almost automatically downgraded in your rank, and if you want the equivalent job, you'll have to jump through the same hoops the second time.

bombolo 4y ago

Academia will easily ask you to do a lecture.

roflyear 4y ago
To real students? How long of a lecture? Do they pay you if to real students?
- bombolo 4y ago
  A real full lenght lecture, not to students but to peers. Not paid.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Academia also has the concept of tenure, which is basically "you're evaluated each year and easily fired" - if they don't like you you don't come back. This makes sense to me! How long is the lecture? 1hr? That doesn't sound bad compared to a 20hr programming assignment!!