4 ms·

If the % of woman developers is 10% and management creates hiring goal of 50% it detorts reality. It means hr has to work harder at filling those female roles

by ipaddr 4y ago

If the % of woman developers is 10% and management creates hiring goal of 50% it detorts reality. It means hr has to work harder at filling those female roles which often reduce their checkboxes while increasing the checkboxes for everyone else. Now you have to leaving positions unfilled longer in hopes of finding a candidate who matches a gender. You've turned the hiring process into a broken mess and require 1000 times more candidates. Let's say you are successful. Let's say a class of companies are successful at this strategy. Lets use the example of faangs which are desirable places in terms of salary/brand. If faangs were successful at this that would reduce the % of female developers in other industry and assuming faangs are taking the best candidates that leaves the worst ones. Which then creates this reality where male programmers outclass female developers in these other industries. That makes it harder for women in general and makes this false impression that females are not as good as males. To help women you really need to treat them equally. Trying to reach a goal of unhealthy unnatural % industry wide means women will left holding the bag when the music stops.

jbmsf 4y ago
That does sound frustrating, but I think you are conflating naive management practices with inclusive hiring.
- slt2021 4y ago
  ipaddr is right that he described the actual situation with FAANGs scooping up all of high caliber underrepresented minority candidates (think black/women ivy league comp sci grads with high GPA). But this also creates a positive feedback loop when more and more women decide to switch industries and pursue IT/Engineering jobs via bootcamps, college degrees, etc. I noticed the number of female candidates in UX/UI, fullstack, QA, Data Analytics - has increased in last several years. Partly because the demand is still high for these professionals, partly because there is entire cottage industry of bootcamps churning out IT specialists en masse, partly these diversity hiring practices that opened up doors for women
  - sirsinsalot 4y ago
    Yes and anyone with an ounce of technical hiring ability avoids those bootcampers like wildfire. They churn out ego inflated beginners who think they're experts. The mentality peddled by bootcamps to sell their wares produces dangers "engineers" in my opinion. I have no formal education, I'm not coming from educational elitism here.
    - cipheredStones 4y ago
      Regardless of whether you're coming from educational elitism, you're still making sweeping claims about big groups of people based on extremely limited evidence. I'm a bootcamp grad, and would not have gotten into the field if bootcamps did not exist. I'm about four years into my career now, currently working at a major well-reputed tech company, and haven't gotten an average-or-below annual performance review yet. (And one reason for that is that I tend to be cautious, critical, and thoughtful in my technical decisions.) There are a number of other people from my bootcamp class with similar results.
      - sirsinsalot 4y ago
        I am making a generalisation, based on having interviewed over 200 developers in the past 2 years as part of technical screening. 80%+ of the bootcampers were rubbish and shocked to be told their knowledge was way below where they thought it was. A classic is a 6 week JavaScript bootcamp grad claiming to be an "expert in JavaScript" (their words) and couldn't explain the JS type system or basics of variable scope. That was the norm. That kind of rubbish. I'm happy you're an exception and everyone gets a fair chance with me, regardless of background, but I am never shocked when I have to bin yet another bootcampers CV
        cipheredStones 4y ago
        "Everyone gets a fair chance with me, regardless of background" is an _extremely_ different statement than "anyone with an ounce of technical hiring ability avoids those bootcampers like wildfire". If you mean "in my experience, bootcampers fail technical screens at much higher rates", then say that, instead of implying that you're stupid if you even consider hiring someone who went to a bootcamp.

by ipaddr 4y ago

jbmsf 4y ago

That does sound frustrating, but I think you are conflating naive management practices with inclusive hiring.

slt2021 4y ago
ipaddr is right that he described the actual situation with FAANGs scooping up all of high caliber underrepresented minority candidates (think black/women ivy league comp sci grads with high GPA). But this also creates a positive feedback loop when more and more women decide to switch industries and pursue IT/Engineering jobs via bootcamps, college degrees, etc. I noticed the number of female candidates in UX/UI, fullstack, QA, Data Analytics - has increased in last several years. Partly because the demand is still high for these professionals, partly because there is entire cottage industry of bootcamps churning out IT specialists en masse, partly these diversity hiring practices that opened up doors for women
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  Yes and anyone with an ounce of technical hiring ability avoids those bootcampers like wildfire. They churn out ego inflated beginners who think they're experts. The mentality peddled by bootcamps to sell their wares produces dangers "engineers" in my opinion. I have no formal education, I'm not coming from educational elitism here.
  - cipheredStones 4y ago
    Regardless of whether you're coming from educational elitism, you're still making sweeping claims about big groups of people based on extremely limited evidence. I'm a bootcamp grad, and would not have gotten into the field if bootcamps did not exist. I'm about four years into my career now, currently working at a major well-reputed tech company, and haven't gotten an average-or-below annual performance review yet. (And one reason for that is that I tend to be cautious, critical, and thoughtful in my technical decisions.) There are a number of other people from my bootcamp class with similar results.
    - sirsinsalot 4y ago
      I am making a generalisation, based on having interviewed over 200 developers in the past 2 years as part of technical screening. 80%+ of the bootcampers were rubbish and shocked to be told their knowledge was way below where they thought it was. A classic is a 6 week JavaScript bootcamp grad claiming to be an "expert in JavaScript" (their words) and couldn't explain the JS type system or basics of variable scope. That was the norm. That kind of rubbish. I'm happy you're an exception and everyone gets a fair chance with me, regardless of background, but I am never shocked when I have to bin yet another bootcampers CV
      - cipheredStones 4y ago
        "Everyone gets a fair chance with me, regardless of background" is an _extremely_ different statement than "anyone with an ounce of technical hiring ability avoids those bootcampers like wildfire". If you mean "in my experience, bootcampers fail technical screens at much higher rates", then say that, instead of implying that you're stupid if you even consider hiring someone who went to a bootcamp.