5 ms·

A few questions that are never really addressed in these discussions about "bias", "discrimination", "race", etc.: What is discrimination at a fundamental leve

A few questions that are never really addressed in these discussions about "bias", "discrimination", "race", etc.: What is discrimination at a fundamental level? The term originally means to perceive something as validly distinct - e.g. to discriminate between truthhood and falsity, between up and down, between black and white. The term is most often now used with the implicit qualification of "unjust", "unwarranted", "unreal" or "quasi". So-called "racial discrimination" is a charge made when there appears to be some kind of injustice in the evaluation. So does this mean the mark of racial/ethnic/(even religious)/whatever stock is to be totally unrecognized as a heuristic in all judgments? Or just some? If just some, which ones? Why? Where is the line drawn? How many cycles of flawed attempts at psychological programming (the unintended consequences of which are perhaps not even entirely observed or taken into consideration) do we need to go through before ditching this endeavour? As it pertains to law enforcement, is it easier to simply admit that our current system can't be reformed through psy-ops, and that maybe we need to revert to a more subsidiarian/local principle of security in general?

slowmovintarget 4y ago
Thomas Sowell breaks down discrimination into far more useful categories. > At a minimum, we need to know what we ourselves mean when we use a word like "discrimination," especially since it has conflicting meanings. The broader meaning--an ability to discern differences in the qualities of people and things, and choosing accordingly--can be called Discrimination I. The narrower, but more commonly used, meaning--treating people negatively, based on arbitrary aversions or animosities to individuals of a particular race or sex, for example--can be called Discrimination II, the kind of discrimination that has led to anti-discrimination laws and policies. He goes on to break Discrimination I down into two subcategories, A and B. Type Ia: "The ideal, and more costly, variation is seeking and paying the cost for information that would permit judging each individual as an individual, regardless of the group from which that individual comes." Type Ib: "In other cases, where such information is too costly to be worth it, individuals may be judged by empirical evidence on the group they are part of." An example of type Ib is judging a person's ability to pay back a mortgage loan based on their income.
- lumb63 4y ago
  What work is this from? I’ve been meaning to read some of Sowell’s, and this sounds fascinating.
  - pjscott 4y ago
    That's from the book "Discrimination and Disparities".
    - slowmovintarget 4y ago
      Yes, and it's an excellent read.
- Connor_Creegan 4y ago
  These are good distinctions. But I think maybe the central question or line of questioning I was driving at was this: what is it that makes some given discriminatory judgment borne of animosity or pure arbitration without reason? How could we even consistently determine something like that? Even about ourselves? If it must be borne of explicable reasons, to whom must we justify ourselves with these reasons? Personally, instead of dealing with this litany of issues I'd rather do what I normally do and just lol at people who charge me with waaaacism for whatever bizarre reason they happen to concoct today.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    > I'd rather do what I normally do and just lol at people who charge me with waaaacism for whatever bizarre reason they happen to concoct today. So apathy? Perhaps a reasonable strategy if others are objectively being irrational. Being a part of the majority demographic, especially one with outsized wealth and opportunity, though could make apathy more dangerous if the cost is systematically harming all the others.
    - Connor_Creegan 4y ago
      You're talking about the "majority demographic" like they're some kind of parental figure. Like they have some kind of, uh, burden or something. No matter. By refusing to engage people who wouldn't even dream of extending their scrutiny of my theorized unconscious "biases" to themselves, I am doing more to advance the cause of muhnorities than ten Martin Luther Kings combined. I am ousting myself - a racist - from their community! What could be better than that?
faeriechangling 4y ago
You know I've been wondering this an awful lot myself and have thought about discrimination WITHOUT the qualifier and I find it enlightening because if you use the qualifier you just answer a question with a question - what is "unjust" or "unwarranted" People look at me funny when I use the term broadly and society is unapologetically extremely discriminatory against people who are "stupid" to the point that people will get outraged if a smart person doesn't get what they DESERVE, say admission into an elite university, when they are so far above the unwashed masses. Take the Asian student taking his case about discrimination to the Supreme Court about not getting into school with a GPA over 5, is that his school SHOULD have essentially discriminated in his favour due to his grades, and SHOULDN'T have discriminated against him due to his race. Grade based discrimination is legitimate, race based discrimination is not. "Anti-discrimination" is more like "Anti-unwarranted-discrimination" or "anti-unjust-discrimination", people are generally supportive of discrimination, just so long as it isn't unjustified. Racial discrimination is terrible for race relations, gender discrimination is bad for gender equality, discrimination against different nationalities causes wars, discrimination against transgender people reduces mental health, so this is BAD discrimination. Discrimination by grades means more people end up productive members of society so this is GOOD discrimination. Also discriminating against those who discriminate inappropriately is very important, so as to ensure everybody is discriminating in the correct manner.

slowmovintarget 4y ago

Thomas Sowell breaks down discrimination into far more useful categories. > At a minimum, we need to know what we ourselves mean when we use a word like "discrimination," especially since it has conflicting meanings. The broader meaning--an ability to discern differences in the qualities of people and things, and choosing accordingly--can be called Discrimination I. The narrower, but more commonly used, meaning--treating people negatively, based on arbitrary aversions or animosities to individuals of a particular race or sex, for example--can be called Discrimination II, the kind of discrimination that has led to anti-discrimination laws and policies. He goes on to break Discrimination I down into two subcategories, A and B. Type Ia: "The ideal, and more costly, variation is seeking and paying the cost for information that would permit judging each individual as an individual, regardless of the group from which that individual comes." Type Ib: "In other cases, where such information is too costly to be worth it, individuals may be judged by empirical evidence on the group they are part of." An example of type Ib is judging a person's ability to pay back a mortgage loan based on their income.

lumb63 4y ago
What work is this from? I’ve been meaning to read some of Sowell’s, and this sounds fascinating.
- pjscott 4y ago
  That's from the book "Discrimination and Disparities".
  - slowmovintarget 4y ago
    Yes, and it's an excellent read.
Connor_Creegan 4y ago
These are good distinctions. But I think maybe the central question or line of questioning I was driving at was this: what is it that makes some given discriminatory judgment borne of animosity or pure arbitration without reason? How could we even consistently determine something like that? Even about ourselves? If it must be borne of explicable reasons, to whom must we justify ourselves with these reasons? Personally, instead of dealing with this litany of issues I'd rather do what I normally do and just lol at people who charge me with waaaacism for whatever bizarre reason they happen to concoct today.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  > I'd rather do what I normally do and just lol at people who charge me with waaaacism for whatever bizarre reason they happen to concoct today. So apathy? Perhaps a reasonable strategy if others are objectively being irrational. Being a part of the majority demographic, especially one with outsized wealth and opportunity, though could make apathy more dangerous if the cost is systematically harming all the others.
  - Connor_Creegan 4y ago
    You're talking about the "majority demographic" like they're some kind of parental figure. Like they have some kind of, uh, burden or something. No matter. By refusing to engage people who wouldn't even dream of extending their scrutiny of my theorized unconscious "biases" to themselves, I am doing more to advance the cause of muhnorities than ten Martin Luther Kings combined. I am ousting myself - a racist - from their community! What could be better than that?

faeriechangling 4y ago

You know I've been wondering this an awful lot myself and have thought about discrimination WITHOUT the qualifier and I find it enlightening because if you use the qualifier you just answer a question with a question - what is "unjust" or "unwarranted" People look at me funny when I use the term broadly and society is unapologetically extremely discriminatory against people who are "stupid" to the point that people will get outraged if a smart person doesn't get what they DESERVE, say admission into an elite university, when they are so far above the unwashed masses. Take the Asian student taking his case about discrimination to the Supreme Court about not getting into school with a GPA over 5, is that his school SHOULD have essentially discriminated in his favour due to his grades, and SHOULDN'T have discriminated against him due to his race. Grade based discrimination is legitimate, race based discrimination is not. "Anti-discrimination" is more like "Anti-unwarranted-discrimination" or "anti-unjust-discrimination", people are generally supportive of discrimination, just so long as it isn't unjustified. Racial discrimination is terrible for race relations, gender discrimination is bad for gender equality, discrimination against different nationalities causes wars, discrimination against transgender people reduces mental health, so this is BAD discrimination. Discrimination by grades means more people end up productive members of society so this is GOOD discrimination. Also discriminating against those who discriminate inappropriately is very important, so as to ensure everybody is discriminating in the correct manner.