5 ms·

They presented two new languages for functional programming, can we leverage existing popular languages that can do FP just fine for the same goal, e.g. python,

They presented two new languages for functional programming, can we leverage existing popular languages that can do FP just fine for the same goal, e.g. python, javascript, or rust,etc?

dgb23 4y ago
The requirements include be high performance processing. That would exclude the first two.
- FrustratedMonky 4y ago
  Is there a definition for 'high performance'. Does a .NET language like F# qualify. Or does it have to simply be compiled? I'm just not sure that Python wouldn't qualify.
  - richardjam73 4y ago
    F# can use AOT compiling.
  - dgb23 4y ago
    From the examples they gave it’s clear you wouldn’t use python.
nestorD 4y ago
Yes, for example JAX is a strictly functional language, designed for high-performance computing and embedded in Python.
- synergy20 4y ago
  I don't think JAX is a new language though, if it is, it's still Python?
  - _kulang 4y ago
    It’s not even really a language as much as it is an interop layer of sorts. It’s a collection of functional operations on numpy arrays, and a capable JIT. It’s main draw is honestly autograd, and if you’re using that, you often can’t use while or for loops effectively, can’t index numpy arrays without .at[], and should avoid side effects, so strangely it’s neither it’s own language or Python any longer
pharmakom 4y ago
Those languages (except maybe Rust) cannot do FP just fine.
packetlost 4y ago
LOL Python is not functional. We got a crumb of FP with `itertools`, `functools` and `lambda`
- synergy20 4y ago
  the reality is, general programming language with FP capabilities is what flies in practice, pure FP language might be perfect, it's just hard to find coders for them, we will have to live with that. for HPC and ML, Python is dominant, I would expect to enhance python somehow with FP instead of anything else, then adding c/c++/rust/fortran libraries(e.g numpy) for intensive computing needs.
  - noloblo 4y ago
    what about GIL? https://wiki.python.org/moin/GlobalInterpreterLock https://wiki.python.org/moin/GlobalInterpreterLock why python can't thread? impact of GIL on python https://pythonspeed.com/articles/python-gil/ https://pythonspeed.com/articles/python-gil/
    - synergy20 4y ago
      My understanding is that even with GIL removed today, Python is still not a performant language for cpu-intensive tasks, be it single core or multiple-core. Python is better used as a glue language and leverage numpy etc to do the heavy lifting, numpy can work with multiple-core just like c/c++/rust languages can. If you really need launch multiple python processes, the multiprocessing module comes to rescue. While not ideal, I don't see a showstopper to use Python for HPC's high and parallel computation needs at all.
  - karmakaze 4y ago
    Python isn't popular for data only because it's imperative, there's also the vast numerical processing ecosystem. Scala/Spark is an example where FP fits well.
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  We almost lost map/filter/lambda in the python3 transition: https://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=98196 https://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=98196
throwwaway8529 4y ago
Python can’t even do multi line lambdas
- Iwan-Zotow 4y ago
  sure it can
  - pasquinelli 4y ago
    it's been a while since i used python; have lambdas improved? i recall weird restrictions using them, but i can't quite remember what. this was pre puthon 3
    - Iwan-Zotow 4y ago
      Assignment Expression were added, so you could do x = 1 y = 2 q = list(map(lambda t: ( tx := tx, ty := ty, tx+ty )[-1], [1, 2, 3])) print(q)
fatneckbeard 4y ago
as an amateur rust admirer , looking at https://rise-lang.org/ https://rise-lang.org/ .... i think its maybe possible. because their language / tools Rise + Elevate looks like its starting out with a chain of iterators, something we see often in Rust, like zip, reduce, map. if i understand it, they then automatically analyze the iterator chain and rewrite some of it using parallel versions of the code, for example they change Map to MapPar "In Rise, low-level implementation choices such as performing a computation in parallel are encoded with low-level patterns. For example, the map pattern that applies a function to each element of an array might be performed in a data-parallel fashion as indicated by the mapPar variant of the pattern" https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.02268.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.02268.pdf This reminds me a bit of how the Rayon crate in Rust works, where you can take an iter() and change it to par_iter() and instantly get parallelism in your program (depending on various details). but it seems like they have taken it "to the next level" and can output a CUDA program automatically , starting from their basic iterator chain.
- synergy20 4y ago
  Good to know Rise, it does not look like it is under active development since last May though.

They presented two new languages for functional programming, can we leverage existing popular languages that can do FP just fine for the same goal, e.g. python, javascript, or rust,etc?

dgb23 4y ago

The requirements include be high performance processing. That would exclude the first two.

FrustratedMonky 4y ago
Is there a definition for 'high performance'. Does a .NET language like F# qualify. Or does it have to simply be compiled? I'm just not sure that Python wouldn't qualify.
- richardjam73 4y ago
  F# can use AOT compiling.
- dgb23 4y ago
  From the examples they gave it’s clear you wouldn’t use python.

nestorD 4y ago

Yes, for example JAX is a strictly functional language, designed for high-performance computing and embedded in Python.

synergy20 4y ago
I don't think JAX is a new language though, if it is, it's still Python?
- _kulang 4y ago
  It’s not even really a language as much as it is an interop layer of sorts. It’s a collection of functional operations on numpy arrays, and a capable JIT. It’s main draw is honestly autograd, and if you’re using that, you often can’t use while or for loops effectively, can’t index numpy arrays without .at[], and should avoid side effects, so strangely it’s neither it’s own language or Python any longer

pharmakom 4y ago

Those languages (except maybe Rust) cannot do FP just fine.

packetlost 4y ago

LOL Python is not functional. We got a crumb of FP with `itertools`, `functools` and `lambda`

synergy20 4y ago
the reality is, general programming language with FP capabilities is what flies in practice, pure FP language might be perfect, it's just hard to find coders for them, we will have to live with that. for HPC and ML, Python is dominant, I would expect to enhance python somehow with FP instead of anything else, then adding c/c++/rust/fortran libraries(e.g numpy) for intensive computing needs.
- noloblo 4y ago
  what about GIL? https://wiki.python.org/moin/GlobalInterpreterLock https://wiki.python.org/moin/GlobalInterpreterLock why python can't thread? impact of GIL on python https://pythonspeed.com/articles/python-gil/ https://pythonspeed.com/articles/python-gil/
  - synergy20 4y ago
    My understanding is that even with GIL removed today, Python is still not a performant language for cpu-intensive tasks, be it single core or multiple-core. Python is better used as a glue language and leverage numpy etc to do the heavy lifting, numpy can work with multiple-core just like c/c++/rust languages can. If you really need launch multiple python processes, the multiprocessing module comes to rescue. While not ideal, I don't see a showstopper to use Python for HPC's high and parallel computation needs at all.
- karmakaze 4y ago
  Python isn't popular for data only because it's imperative, there's also the vast numerical processing ecosystem. Scala/Spark is an example where FP fits well.
bigbillheck 4y ago
We almost lost map/filter/lambda in the python3 transition: https://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=98196 https://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=98196

throwwaway8529 4y ago

Python can’t even do multi line lambdas

Iwan-Zotow 4y ago
sure it can
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  it's been a while since i used python; have lambdas improved? i recall weird restrictions using them, but i can't quite remember what. this was pre puthon 3
  - Iwan-Zotow 4y ago
    Assignment Expression were added, so you could do x = 1 y = 2 q = list(map(lambda t: ( tx := tx, ty := ty, tx+ty )[-1], [1, 2, 3])) print(q)

fatneckbeard 4y ago

as an amateur rust admirer , looking at https://rise-lang.org/ https://rise-lang.org/ .... i think its maybe possible. because their language / tools Rise + Elevate looks like its starting out with a chain of iterators, something we see often in Rust, like zip, reduce, map. if i understand it, they then automatically analyze the iterator chain and rewrite some of it using parallel versions of the code, for example they change Map to MapPar "In Rise, low-level implementation choices such as performing a computation in parallel are encoded with low-level patterns. For example, the map pattern that applies a function to each element of an array might be performed in a data-parallel fashion as indicated by the mapPar variant of the pattern" https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.02268.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.02268.pdf This reminds me a bit of how the Rayon crate in Rust works, where you can take an iter() and change it to par_iter() and instantly get parallelism in your program (depending on various details). but it seems like they have taken it "to the next level" and can output a CUDA program automatically , starting from their basic iterator chain.

synergy20 4y ago
Good to know Rise, it does not look like it is under active development since last May though.