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Even if these compostable service items can’t be composted at least they would degrade in the environment, right? There is no real issue with landfill space.

by lokar 4y ago

Even if these compostable service items can’t be composted at least they would degrade in the environment, right? There is no real issue with landfill space. True problem is lots stuff never makes it to the landfill.

amluto 4y ago
This is not obviously a good thing. Landfill space is plentiful, and many plastics are quite stable in landfills and lock up their carbon content. But things that decay are likely to emit methane and CO2. IMO the biggest benefit of compostable materials in food service is that they have a decent chance of eventually degrading to safe materials if they end up outside a landfill.
- lokar 4y ago
  I’m thinking of the potato utensils, do they emit methane?
  - amluto 4y ago
    I imagine it depends on what happens to them. They’re largely made out of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen, in a fairly high energy state. If they turn into microbe food in an aerobic environment, they probably turn into CO2 and H2O. In an anaerobic environment, they could turn into all manner of chemicals. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanogenesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanogenesis
cmckn 4y ago
When organic mass is sent to the landfill instead of being composted, it decomposes without oxygen, buried in the fill. Anaerobic digestion produces methane, while aerobic digestion only produces carbon dioxide. Methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.
- jefftk 4y ago
  Yes, if your landfill doesn't make any attempt to capture methane. Modern landfills, however, generally do, and this can be much cheaper than running a separate collection and handling system for compost. The captured methane can either be flared off, or used as a fuel.
  - cmckn 4y ago
    Fair point, and I think most of the older fills at the Denver/Arapahoe site have flares retrofitted. Composting also produces agricultural substrate, but whether or not large-scale industrial composting of single-use products is a net benefit is definitely debatable. I think there’s a clearer benefit to composting your own food waste, which is generally very practical if you have a bit of space.
rstuart4133 4y ago
> Even if these compostable service items can’t be composted at least they would degrade in the environment, right? No, most don't. I was flabbergasted when I discovered this. Until recently I thought "biodegradable" and "compostable" meant that the item would degrade naturally in the "biosphere". In other words if you put it outside and came back in a decade, it would be mostly gone. Instead what happened is the plastics industry managed convinced politicians to redefine those terms to mean "will degrade in an industrial composter". Turns out the industrial composter's they had in mind used high temperatures, and a very specific mix of chemicals to break down the plastic. Quoting https://theconversation.com/t-156566 https://theconversation.com/t-156566 : > But most certified compostable plastics are only for industrial composts, which reach very high temperatures. This means they’re unlikely to break down sufficiently in home composts. Even those certified as “home compostable” are assessed under perfect lab conditions, which aren’t easily achieved in the backyard. It appears to me the plastics industry solved the environmental image problem by getting the legal meanings of "compostable" and "biodegradable" redefined to mean "there exists some industrial process converting the material into something biosphere can consume". All they have to do to get earn the right to stamp their products as "biodegradable" is pay some industrial chemists to create an process that transforms their product into something a plant can use. But as far I can tell it doesn't mean they have to actually do any composting in practice. In fact doing it seems unlikely because there are already lots of very cheap ways to produce compost that don't need an industrial plant or lots of energy (heat). Which they've solved their image problem with a small one off cost - no need for any costly collection or recycling efforts. And no need to actually reduce the environmental impacts of plastic pollution either.

by lokar 4y ago

amluto 4y ago

This is not obviously a good thing. Landfill space is plentiful, and many plastics are quite stable in landfills and lock up their carbon content. But things that decay are likely to emit methane and CO2. IMO the biggest benefit of compostable materials in food service is that they have a decent chance of eventually degrading to safe materials if they end up outside a landfill.

lokar 4y ago
I’m thinking of the potato utensils, do they emit methane?
- amluto 4y ago
  I imagine it depends on what happens to them. They’re largely made out of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen, in a fairly high energy state. If they turn into microbe food in an aerobic environment, they probably turn into CO2 and H2O. In an anaerobic environment, they could turn into all manner of chemicals. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanogenesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanogenesis

cmckn 4y ago

When organic mass is sent to the landfill instead of being composted, it decomposes without oxygen, buried in the fill. Anaerobic digestion produces methane, while aerobic digestion only produces carbon dioxide. Methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

jefftk 4y ago
Yes, if your landfill doesn't make any attempt to capture methane. Modern landfills, however, generally do, and this can be much cheaper than running a separate collection and handling system for compost. The captured methane can either be flared off, or used as a fuel.
- cmckn 4y ago
  Fair point, and I think most of the older fills at the Denver/Arapahoe site have flares retrofitted. Composting also produces agricultural substrate, but whether or not large-scale industrial composting of single-use products is a net benefit is definitely debatable. I think there’s a clearer benefit to composting your own food waste, which is generally very practical if you have a bit of space.

rstuart4133 4y ago

> Even if these compostable service items can’t be composted at least they would degrade in the environment, right? No, most don't. I was flabbergasted when I discovered this. Until recently I thought "biodegradable" and "compostable" meant that the item would degrade naturally in the "biosphere". In other words if you put it outside and came back in a decade, it would be mostly gone. Instead what happened is the plastics industry managed convinced politicians to redefine those terms to mean "will degrade in an industrial composter". Turns out the industrial composter's they had in mind used high temperatures, and a very specific mix of chemicals to break down the plastic. Quoting https://theconversation.com/t-156566 https://theconversation.com/t-156566 : > But most certified compostable plastics are only for industrial composts, which reach very high temperatures. This means they’re unlikely to break down sufficiently in home composts. Even those certified as “home compostable” are assessed under perfect lab conditions, which aren’t easily achieved in the backyard. It appears to me the plastics industry solved the environmental image problem by getting the legal meanings of "compostable" and "biodegradable" redefined to mean "there exists some industrial process converting the material into something biosphere can consume". All they have to do to get earn the right to stamp their products as "biodegradable" is pay some industrial chemists to create an process that transforms their product into something a plant can use. But as far I can tell it doesn't mean they have to actually do any composting in practice. In fact doing it seems unlikely because there are already lots of very cheap ways to produce compost that don't need an industrial plant or lots of energy (heat). Which they've solved their image problem with a small one off cost - no need for any costly collection or recycling efforts. And no need to actually reduce the environmental impacts of plastic pollution either.