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I'm white, my wife is Asian, our kids will be applying to university over the next couple of years. We've started to have the conversation about which race the

I'm white, my wife is Asian, our kids will be applying to university over the next couple of years. We've started to have the conversation about which race they will check off on the application. I'm coming to the conclusion that they have to just check white, as this means they will face less discrimination than if they check Asian. This makes me very uncomfortable, and also just seems absurd.

csa 4y ago
Let me put your concerns to rest… There are no elite schools that systematically discriminate against Asians. Zero. None. Let me add a few points that counter some folks who think that schools do discriminate against Asians: - Some schools do give preferential treatment to Black and Latino/an applicants. This is not a particularly good look for the schools, imho, but it’s the reality. This is not the same as discrimination against Asians. Not declaring a race or declaring white does not help with this. Note that schools give preferential treatment to many groups (e.g., recruited athletes), and race is just one of them. - I see many folks arguing a case for discrimination based on differences in test scores and grades between different races. If those were the only criteria for admission, then I would agree with them. Like it or not, those are not the only admissions criteria that are used at elite schools. Just because the system isn’t what these folks think it is (or possibly should be), that doesn’t make it racist. - The cases of Stuyvesant and Berkeley having an increase in Asian admissions once rules/laws were changed are accurate. The part that they leave out is that the systems changed (almost) purely to some combination of grades and test scores. So I wouldn’t call this necessarily an improvement in fairness, but it definitely was in increase in transparency and move to a system that seems to be (at least currently) more favorable for Asian applicants. - Note that the lawsuit against Harvard was sponsored by a folks who are anti-affirmative action. This wasn’t some charity move towards Asians. Imho, it was an attempt to use one minority group as a weapon to strike against other minority groups. Note that I think that affirmative action has its flaws, but it’s not the villain many folks make it out to be. - Imho, and this is just my opinion based on many anecdotes, I think that the narrative of “elite schools discriminate against Asians” is often used in Asian American communities by folks who don’t understand or just can’t accept that their kids are not strong applicants in the elite school applicant pool. The argument I most often hear is “… but perfect grades and SAT scores”, and this shows me that they really don’t understand what makes for a strong elite school applicant (e.g., recruited athlete, having done something of impact at a national or international level, etc.). I strongly encourage you not to feed this narrative, especially to your children. There is enough real discrimination against Asians in the US — we don’t need to make up additional sources that aren’t real. Note that this phenomenon is not unique to Asian-Americans — I’ve heard equally incorrect narratives from White folks in the NE corridor that (imho) serve an equivalent function. - To help your kids, familiarize yourself and them with what is evaluated in admissions at the schools they are interested in. As a simple example, Harvard rates applicants on athletics even if they are not a recruited athlete. Also note that 15% of Harvard undergrads are varsity athletes; and something like 35% of white undergrads are varsity athletes (not all recruited, but probably rate 1 or 2 in athletics). Not to push athletics, but I think that a lot of people are surprised by these numbers, and it provides some insight into why some seemingly less qualified students are accepted over “perfect grades and SAT” folks. - The article below provides some good insights into Harvard admissions. I honestly don’t think that they go far enough in explaining how impressive the folks who get 1s in any category actually are. That said, these types it things are good for college applicants and their parents to know, and many don’t. https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/types-of-students-admitted-to-harvard-requirements https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/type... - Lastly, note that some schools actually don’t get enough high quality Asian applicants, and they not only get favorable admissions treatment as an underrepresented minority group, but these schools will also throw scholarship money at them like there is no tomorrow. I know of one specific very good (R1) large state school in the Midwest that does this, and I imagine that there are many more. Best of luck to you and your kids. I’m sure they will be fine. Don’t stress about the race issue. Focus on things that actually matter (e.g., location, access to desired major, social fit, etc.).
- tqi 4y ago
  "they really don’t understand what makes for a strong elite school applicant" I think it's pretty clear that even if they did understand what makes for a strong elite school applicant and refocused their energies on meeting those criteria en masse, these elite schools would change that criteria, because the criteria are a means to an end.
  - csa 4y ago
    > these elite schools would change that criteria, because the criteria are a means to an end. That’s a nice opinion you have. Do you have any evidence to support this? The case against Harvard showed us pretty much everything behind the curtain. If there is any systemic bias against any group, that must be the best kept secret in the world. Check out this article: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-president-abbott-lowell-is-laughing-us-again/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-presi... Select quote: “Don’t be fooled by those using the Jewish quota of the mid-20th century or charges of discrimination against Asian Americans (also despicable when true, but which the lower courts convincingly found was not the case here) as an excuse to limit the inclusion of Black and Latino students at selective universities.”
    - tqi 4y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollment-applicants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollme... "Harvard consistently rated Asian-American applicants lower than others on traits like “positive personality,” likability, courage, kindness and being “widely respected,” according to an analysis of more than 160,000 student records filed Friday by a group representing Asian-American students in a lawsuit against the university."
      - csa 4y ago
        … yet somehow a district court found no reasonable claim of discrimination, and the appellate court upheld that finding. Imho, this article is an example of how the NYT has gone off the rails with their agenda-based spin on reporting. The article flat out says the following: “Harvard said that the plaintiffs’ expert, Peter Arcidiacono, a Duke University economist, had mined the data to his advantage by taking out applicants who were favored because they were legacies, athletes, the children of staff and the like, including Asian-Americans.” All of those can influence the personal rating positively. This lawsuit is an attempt by anti-affirmative action people to end affirmative action. They are using Asians as a figurative cudgel to beat other minorities, and this saddens me. Fwiw, I think affirmative action is not without flaws and could be improved (e.g., I struggle to see why Asians aren’t given affirmative action status at these universities similar to how Asians have this status with the federal government — there has been and still is oppression and discrimination against Asian Americans), but I think there are large swathes of the country that are still in favor of this policy.
quantumwannabe 4y ago
The best option would be for them to identify as mixed race.
AbrahamParangi 4y ago
Under no circumstances should your children let the university know if they have Japanese, Chinese, or Korean heritage. They will discriminate against them. That was the case 14 years ago when I was applying for college and it has only gotten more acute since then. They say that they don't discriminate, but it's an absolute lie.
bushbaba 4y ago
I believe you can check any race and they will never question it. You could state you identify as Black and so long as the name and application looks 'black', they'll never know. You'll start your first day at university and what will they do, ask you to take a genetic test?
- 999900000999 4y ago
  As a thought experiment couldn't you just say your from South Africa. Thus being "African American". For the record I hate affirmative action, but I also hate the notion of having some elite 10 schools everyone strives to get into. You can do just fine going to a state school, and you'll probably have a much more relaxed experienced. You can also do what I did and hit 100k no degree at all. With all this talk of student loan forgiveness, maybe we need to rethink the role of college. It doesn't need to be an automatic first step into adulthood, you can learn a great deal working for a few years beforehand.
  - AussieWog93 4y ago
    Holy shit, my wife's a Saffa and I'd never considered the fact that it means my daughter technically has African heritage in her. Sadly, I can't imagine it being much use when she's old enough to go to university. Most of the (African) black people in Australia come from recent migrant backgrounds, are fairly religious/conservative and believe strongly in education. I suspect they'd run into similar problems to Asians if we had the same affirmative action policies down here in Aus.
  - bushbaba 4y ago
    Friend who’s a white South African did exactly this. Ended up getting a full ride. First day let’s just say OMED didn’t know how to handle it and just brushed it off.
    - 999900000999 4y ago
      I even suggested this to some folks I met while traveling. Awesome it worked out for your friend!

csa 4y ago

Let me put your concerns to rest… There are no elite schools that systematically discriminate against Asians. Zero. None. Let me add a few points that counter some folks who think that schools do discriminate against Asians: - Some schools do give preferential treatment to Black and Latino/an applicants. This is not a particularly good look for the schools, imho, but it’s the reality. This is not the same as discrimination against Asians. Not declaring a race or declaring white does not help with this. Note that schools give preferential treatment to many groups (e.g., recruited athletes), and race is just one of them. - I see many folks arguing a case for discrimination based on differences in test scores and grades between different races. If those were the only criteria for admission, then I would agree with them. Like it or not, those are not the only admissions criteria that are used at elite schools. Just because the system isn’t what these folks think it is (or possibly should be), that doesn’t make it racist. - The cases of Stuyvesant and Berkeley having an increase in Asian admissions once rules/laws were changed are accurate. The part that they leave out is that the systems changed (almost) purely to some combination of grades and test scores. So I wouldn’t call this necessarily an improvement in fairness, but it definitely was in increase in transparency and move to a system that seems to be (at least currently) more favorable for Asian applicants. - Note that the lawsuit against Harvard was sponsored by a folks who are anti-affirmative action. This wasn’t some charity move towards Asians. Imho, it was an attempt to use one minority group as a weapon to strike against other minority groups. Note that I think that affirmative action has its flaws, but it’s not the villain many folks make it out to be. - Imho, and this is just my opinion based on many anecdotes, I think that the narrative of “elite schools discriminate against Asians” is often used in Asian American communities by folks who don’t understand or just can’t accept that their kids are not strong applicants in the elite school applicant pool. The argument I most often hear is “… but perfect grades and SAT scores”, and this shows me that they really don’t understand what makes for a strong elite school applicant (e.g., recruited athlete, having done something of impact at a national or international level, etc.). I strongly encourage you not to feed this narrative, especially to your children. There is enough real discrimination against Asians in the US — we don’t need to make up additional sources that aren’t real. Note that this phenomenon is not unique to Asian-Americans — I’ve heard equally incorrect narratives from White folks in the NE corridor that (imho) serve an equivalent function. - To help your kids, familiarize yourself and them with what is evaluated in admissions at the schools they are interested in. As a simple example, Harvard rates applicants on athletics even if they are not a recruited athlete. Also note that 15% of Harvard undergrads are varsity athletes; and something like 35% of white undergrads are varsity athletes (not all recruited, but probably rate 1 or 2 in athletics). Not to push athletics, but I think that a lot of people are surprised by these numbers, and it provides some insight into why some seemingly less qualified students are accepted over “perfect grades and SAT” folks. - The article below provides some good insights into Harvard admissions. I honestly don’t think that they go far enough in explaining how impressive the folks who get 1s in any category actually are. That said, these types it things are good for college applicants and their parents to know, and many don’t. https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/types-of-students-admitted-to-harvard-requirements https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/type... - Lastly, note that some schools actually don’t get enough high quality Asian applicants, and they not only get favorable admissions treatment as an underrepresented minority group, but these schools will also throw scholarship money at them like there is no tomorrow. I know of one specific very good (R1) large state school in the Midwest that does this, and I imagine that there are many more. Best of luck to you and your kids. I’m sure they will be fine. Don’t stress about the race issue. Focus on things that actually matter (e.g., location, access to desired major, social fit, etc.).

tqi 4y ago
"they really don’t understand what makes for a strong elite school applicant" I think it's pretty clear that even if they did understand what makes for a strong elite school applicant and refocused their energies on meeting those criteria en masse, these elite schools would change that criteria, because the criteria are a means to an end.
- csa 4y ago
  > these elite schools would change that criteria, because the criteria are a means to an end. That’s a nice opinion you have. Do you have any evidence to support this? The case against Harvard showed us pretty much everything behind the curtain. If there is any systemic bias against any group, that must be the best kept secret in the world. Check out this article: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-president-abbott-lowell-is-laughing-us-again/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-presi... Select quote: “Don’t be fooled by those using the Jewish quota of the mid-20th century or charges of discrimination against Asian Americans (also despicable when true, but which the lower courts convincingly found was not the case here) as an excuse to limit the inclusion of Black and Latino students at selective universities.”
  - tqi 4y ago
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollment-applicants.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollme... "Harvard consistently rated Asian-American applicants lower than others on traits like “positive personality,” likability, courage, kindness and being “widely respected,” according to an analysis of more than 160,000 student records filed Friday by a group representing Asian-American students in a lawsuit against the university."
    - csa 4y ago
      … yet somehow a district court found no reasonable claim of discrimination, and the appellate court upheld that finding. Imho, this article is an example of how the NYT has gone off the rails with their agenda-based spin on reporting. The article flat out says the following: “Harvard said that the plaintiffs’ expert, Peter Arcidiacono, a Duke University economist, had mined the data to his advantage by taking out applicants who were favored because they were legacies, athletes, the children of staff and the like, including Asian-Americans.” All of those can influence the personal rating positively. This lawsuit is an attempt by anti-affirmative action people to end affirmative action. They are using Asians as a figurative cudgel to beat other minorities, and this saddens me. Fwiw, I think affirmative action is not without flaws and could be improved (e.g., I struggle to see why Asians aren’t given affirmative action status at these universities similar to how Asians have this status with the federal government — there has been and still is oppression and discrimination against Asian Americans), but I think there are large swathes of the country that are still in favor of this policy.

quantumwannabe 4y ago

The best option would be for them to identify as mixed race.

AbrahamParangi 4y ago

Under no circumstances should your children let the university know if they have Japanese, Chinese, or Korean heritage. They will discriminate against them. That was the case 14 years ago when I was applying for college and it has only gotten more acute since then. They say that they don't discriminate, but it's an absolute lie.

bushbaba 4y ago

I believe you can check any race and they will never question it. You could state you identify as Black and so long as the name and application looks 'black', they'll never know. You'll start your first day at university and what will they do, ask you to take a genetic test?

999900000999 4y ago
As a thought experiment couldn't you just say your from South Africa. Thus being "African American". For the record I hate affirmative action, but I also hate the notion of having some elite 10 schools everyone strives to get into. You can do just fine going to a state school, and you'll probably have a much more relaxed experienced. You can also do what I did and hit 100k no degree at all. With all this talk of student loan forgiveness, maybe we need to rethink the role of college. It doesn't need to be an automatic first step into adulthood, you can learn a great deal working for a few years beforehand.
- AussieWog93 4y ago
  Holy shit, my wife's a Saffa and I'd never considered the fact that it means my daughter technically has African heritage in her. Sadly, I can't imagine it being much use when she's old enough to go to university. Most of the (African) black people in Australia come from recent migrant backgrounds, are fairly religious/conservative and believe strongly in education. I suspect they'd run into similar problems to Asians if we had the same affirmative action policies down here in Aus.
- bushbaba 4y ago
  Friend who’s a white South African did exactly this. Ended up getting a full ride. First day let’s just say OMED didn’t know how to handle it and just brushed it off.
  - 999900000999 4y ago
    I even suggested this to some folks I met while traveling. Awesome it worked out for your friend!