6 ms·

Yes, exactly. “Holistic” evaluation is entirely game-able. The claim is that they are trying to give the kid from East New York a shot but the reality is that

Yes, exactly. “Holistic” evaluation is entirely game-able. The claim is that they are trying to give the kid from East New York a shot but the reality is that this is all about the Dalton parents not wanting their little precious to have to go head to head on a fair playing field against a Stuyvesant kid. Their goal is to make all desirable institutions look like Dalton—-very wealthy students with an appropriate sprinkling of diversity make everyone feel great about how open minded and progressive they are.

zozbot234 4y ago
Not just gameable, but provably biased to start with against applicants from a lower-class background. And with K-12 public education declining even further in quality, the bias against students from less privileged backgrounds and having less outside support will only increase.
Spooky23 4y ago
The issue is that the standardized tests correlate with IQ, and IQ has been determined to be have racial and other biases. I went to a shitty rural high school - high scores on my ACT made a huge difference as anyone who could read got out of that school with a 3.7.
- yellow_lead 4y ago
  IQ and race have a confounding variable - poverty. Malnourishment, abuse, lack of healthcare, etc can all be detrimental to a child's development.
  - realjhol 4y ago
    Poverty correlates with high time preference. High IQ correlates with low time preference.
- civilized 4y ago
  What do you mean by bias?
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Different populations perform differently on average. There’s also a historical association with IQ assessment and eugenics.
    - civilized 4y ago
      > Different populations perform differently on average Does this mean that today's IQ tests have racial bias? > There’s also a historical association with IQ assessment and eugenics. Does this mean that today's IQ tests have racial bias?
      - tptacek 4y ago
        Yes, structurally if not deliberately (it is unlikely that mainstream IQ tests are anything but diligently designed to avoid overt bias, unlike those of the middle 20th century). If you measure something that has a large SES causative component, and SES is for whatever reason itself highly correlated with race, then your measurements will encode a racial bias. The big debate in academic psychology is the extent to which factors like SES (and factors downstream of SES, like general health) confound the measurement of some kind of general intelligence. The evidence we have right now pretty clearly points to an effect, so it's down to what the size of that effect is.
        hijghula 4y ago
        Your second statement is incorrect. Having a racial bias would mean that IQ tests are incorrect (having significantly different errors) for certain samples/groups. But no one is saying that. Imagine a test to measure the resistance of various materials. Is the test biased because it shows that concrete is stronger than rotten wood? No, it just measures the resistance of different materials. If the measurement error (not the measurement itself) was significantly different for different materials then yes you could say the test is biased. You are just saying that SES affects intelligence, which is most likely true and immediately prompts the question of what affects SES.
- tekla 4y ago
  > standardized tests correlate with IQ > IQ has been determined to be have racial and other biases. Citation needed
- bradleyjg 4y ago
  What I’m saying is that isn’t “the issue,” it’s just pretext. Schools can do affirmative action for African Americans without making standardized testing optional, they have been for decades. What’s harder for them to do without getting rid of such tests is discriminating against Asians (and middle class whites) in favor of rich whites. It’s no coincidence that this is happening in the wake of the Harvard lawsuit. What these schools want is a class made up entirely of diversity, athlete, and development admits. The first generation Asian-American kid isn’t taking a seat away from a black kid, he’s taking it from the son of the CFO of a Fortune 500 company.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Affirmative action is a big bugaboo that will probably be subject of a Supreme Court action. I think these are complex issues and there’s no scenario where everyone is happy. As a society we’d be better off to tone down the fawning over Ivy League schools.

zozbot234 4y ago

Not just gameable, but provably biased to start with against applicants from a lower-class background. And with K-12 public education declining even further in quality, the bias against students from less privileged backgrounds and having less outside support will only increase.

Spooky23 4y ago

The issue is that the standardized tests correlate with IQ, and IQ has been determined to be have racial and other biases. I went to a shitty rural high school - high scores on my ACT made a huge difference as anyone who could read got out of that school with a 3.7.

yellow_lead 4y ago
IQ and race have a confounding variable - poverty. Malnourishment, abuse, lack of healthcare, etc can all be detrimental to a child's development.
- realjhol 4y ago
  Poverty correlates with high time preference. High IQ correlates with low time preference.
civilized 4y ago
What do you mean by bias?
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Different populations perform differently on average. There’s also a historical association with IQ assessment and eugenics.
  - civilized 4y ago
    > Different populations perform differently on average Does this mean that today's IQ tests have racial bias? > There’s also a historical association with IQ assessment and eugenics. Does this mean that today's IQ tests have racial bias?
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Yes, structurally if not deliberately (it is unlikely that mainstream IQ tests are anything but diligently designed to avoid overt bias, unlike those of the middle 20th century). If you measure something that has a large SES causative component, and SES is for whatever reason itself highly correlated with race, then your measurements will encode a racial bias. The big debate in academic psychology is the extent to which factors like SES (and factors downstream of SES, like general health) confound the measurement of some kind of general intelligence. The evidence we have right now pretty clearly points to an effect, so it's down to what the size of that effect is.
      - hijghula 4y ago
        Your second statement is incorrect. Having a racial bias would mean that IQ tests are incorrect (having significantly different errors) for certain samples/groups. But no one is saying that. Imagine a test to measure the resistance of various materials. Is the test biased because it shows that concrete is stronger than rotten wood? No, it just measures the resistance of different materials. If the measurement error (not the measurement itself) was significantly different for different materials then yes you could say the test is biased. You are just saying that SES affects intelligence, which is most likely true and immediately prompts the question of what affects SES.
tekla 4y ago
> standardized tests correlate with IQ > IQ has been determined to be have racial and other biases. Citation needed
bradleyjg 4y ago
What I’m saying is that isn’t “the issue,” it’s just pretext. Schools can do affirmative action for African Americans without making standardized testing optional, they have been for decades. What’s harder for them to do without getting rid of such tests is discriminating against Asians (and middle class whites) in favor of rich whites. It’s no coincidence that this is happening in the wake of the Harvard lawsuit. What these schools want is a class made up entirely of diversity, athlete, and development admits. The first generation Asian-American kid isn’t taking a seat away from a black kid, he’s taking it from the son of the CFO of a Fortune 500 company.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Affirmative action is a big bugaboo that will probably be subject of a Supreme Court action. I think these are complex issues and there’s no scenario where everyone is happy. As a society we’d be better off to tone down the fawning over Ivy League schools.