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> there’s nothing the US wants less than borders starting to be changed by wars I think it's a major mistake to talk about any country as if it's one homogenou

> there’s nothing the US wants less than borders starting to be changed by wars I think it's a major mistake to talk about any country as if it's one homogenous, unanimous entity. There are those in the US, and elsewhere, who stand to make a great deal of out of money from war.

andy_ppp 4y ago
Which part of the American government forced Putin to invade Ukraine? I presume you have some evidence of this because you sound so sure it was all planned?
- macinjosh 4y ago
  1. NATO which is primarily funded by the US has been pushing up closer and closer against Russia’s border. 2. US helped orchestrate the 2014 coup that overthrew a democratically elected but Russian friendly government. 3. Ukraine, being a US client state, refused to uphold the Minsk peace agreements. 4. Immediately prior to the invasion the US/Ukraine side of the proxy war escalated shelling of Russian leaning parts of Ukraine crossing known red lines. 5. Ukraine has outlawed Russian language, culture, religion, political parties, and jail those who practice them. Which we all know is how democracies function /s
  - chaostheory 4y ago
    > US helped orchestrate the 2014 coup that overthrew a democratically elected but Russian friendly government. Extreme corruption and mismanagement had a much larger influence on the ‘coup’. I’m not saying that the current gov is clean, but that’s what leads to regime change. Also the election you were referring to was a complete sham, which is common with most Russian supported governments > Ukraine has outlawed Russian language, culture, religion, political parties, and jail those who practice them. This happened after the 1st invasion, and not prior to that
  - throwaway6734 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    [flagged]
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Nobody forced Putin to invade. However, the US government certainly signed off on pre-war decisions to extend Nato into Ukraine, paying to modernize the Ukrainian military, and Joint military exercises in the Black Sea. Not being part of these decisions, You and I can only speculate on how they fit into overall US strategy and how the risk-rewards were weighed. My concern as a US citizen is that the current war in Ukraine seems to be a great benefit for the USA in almost all regards. I am skeptical but would hope this was not a factor in the decisions leading up to the war.
  - jonnybgood 4y ago
    > However, the US government certainly signed off on pre-war decisions to extend Nato into Ukraine, paying to modernize the Ukrainian military, and Joint military exercises in the Black Sea. All of this occurred after 2014. What happened in 2014? Everything that is happening in that region is due to Putin and Russia’s own actions. This is not a great benefit to the US whatsoever. It takes attention away from Asia. The US has been reaching in to its stockpiles and coffers to make sure Russia doesn’t get what it wants.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      >What happened in 2014 A revolution in Ukraine where a pro-Russia government was removed and a pro-NATO one came to power. This is extremely relevant. >Everything that is happening in that region is due to Putin and Russia’s own actions. To be clear, I am not denying Russia's agency and aggression. Similarly, I don't think it is realistic to say that the US has made zero decisions, has zero influence, has zero power, and zero interests in the region. >This is not a great benefit to the US whatsoever. This war has imposed real costs to Russia and has a real chance of destabilizing Russia for the foreseeable future, perhaps breaking it. It is extremally cheap compared to other wars and being fought without loss of American lives. The conflict is taking nothing away from US efforts in Asia. Honest question: If you were a US military strategist, would you sacrifice Ukraine to destroy Russia? Would you sacrifice Ukraine to simply damage their military?
mistermann 4y ago
>> there’s nothing the US wants less than borders starting to be changed by wars > I think it's a major mistake to talk about any country as if it's one homogenous, unanimous entity Not to mention mind reading! It's become so common and acceptable in our culture, we don't even realize when we're doing it anymore. I swear, this simulation is becoming so bizarre it wouldn't even shock me if one day flood lights came on and we discovered we've been on a giant TV set this whole time. On the brighter side though: what a show! How will it all end I wonder.
- logifail 4y ago
  > It's become so common [..] Yes, rarely a day goes by without me coming across a story entitled "Gen Z is $foo" or "Gen Z doesn't $bar" or similar. > and acceptable [..] Not sure about that, I stop reading as whenever I encounter such lazy writing! Somehow we're hearing and making more noise than ever about diversity and inclusion, yet we've collectively forgotten what diversity actually means...
  - mistermann 4y ago
    > Not sure about that, I stop reading as whenever I encounter such lazy writing! Lazy writing is an assumption, and I don't think it is a remotely safe one. Keep in mind that there is a difference between the state of mind a person is in at the time they were writing a comment, and the state of mind they are in when they get called on what they say in their comment.

andy_ppp 4y ago

Which part of the American government forced Putin to invade Ukraine? I presume you have some evidence of this because you sound so sure it was all planned?

macinjosh 4y ago
1. NATO which is primarily funded by the US has been pushing up closer and closer against Russia’s border. 2. US helped orchestrate the 2014 coup that overthrew a democratically elected but Russian friendly government. 3. Ukraine, being a US client state, refused to uphold the Minsk peace agreements. 4. Immediately prior to the invasion the US/Ukraine side of the proxy war escalated shelling of Russian leaning parts of Ukraine crossing known red lines. 5. Ukraine has outlawed Russian language, culture, religion, political parties, and jail those who practice them. Which we all know is how democracies function /s
- chaostheory 4y ago
  > US helped orchestrate the 2014 coup that overthrew a democratically elected but Russian friendly government. Extreme corruption and mismanagement had a much larger influence on the ‘coup’. I’m not saying that the current gov is clean, but that’s what leads to regime change. Also the election you were referring to was a complete sham, which is common with most Russian supported governments > Ukraine has outlawed Russian language, culture, religion, political parties, and jail those who practice them. This happened after the 1st invasion, and not prior to that
- throwaway6734 4y ago
  [flagged]
- dmitriid 4y ago
  [flagged]
s1artibartfast 4y ago
Nobody forced Putin to invade. However, the US government certainly signed off on pre-war decisions to extend Nato into Ukraine, paying to modernize the Ukrainian military, and Joint military exercises in the Black Sea. Not being part of these decisions, You and I can only speculate on how they fit into overall US strategy and how the risk-rewards were weighed. My concern as a US citizen is that the current war in Ukraine seems to be a great benefit for the USA in almost all regards. I am skeptical but would hope this was not a factor in the decisions leading up to the war.
- jonnybgood 4y ago
  > However, the US government certainly signed off on pre-war decisions to extend Nato into Ukraine, paying to modernize the Ukrainian military, and Joint military exercises in the Black Sea. All of this occurred after 2014. What happened in 2014? Everything that is happening in that region is due to Putin and Russia’s own actions. This is not a great benefit to the US whatsoever. It takes attention away from Asia. The US has been reaching in to its stockpiles and coffers to make sure Russia doesn’t get what it wants.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    >What happened in 2014 A revolution in Ukraine where a pro-Russia government was removed and a pro-NATO one came to power. This is extremely relevant. >Everything that is happening in that region is due to Putin and Russia’s own actions. To be clear, I am not denying Russia's agency and aggression. Similarly, I don't think it is realistic to say that the US has made zero decisions, has zero influence, has zero power, and zero interests in the region. >This is not a great benefit to the US whatsoever. This war has imposed real costs to Russia and has a real chance of destabilizing Russia for the foreseeable future, perhaps breaking it. It is extremally cheap compared to other wars and being fought without loss of American lives. The conflict is taking nothing away from US efforts in Asia. Honest question: If you were a US military strategist, would you sacrifice Ukraine to destroy Russia? Would you sacrifice Ukraine to simply damage their military?

mistermann 4y ago

>> there’s nothing the US wants less than borders starting to be changed by wars > I think it's a major mistake to talk about any country as if it's one homogenous, unanimous entity Not to mention mind reading! It's become so common and acceptable in our culture, we don't even realize when we're doing it anymore. I swear, this simulation is becoming so bizarre it wouldn't even shock me if one day flood lights came on and we discovered we've been on a giant TV set this whole time. On the brighter side though: what a show! How will it all end I wonder.

logifail 4y ago
> It's become so common [..] Yes, rarely a day goes by without me coming across a story entitled "Gen Z is $foo" or "Gen Z doesn't $bar" or similar. > and acceptable [..] Not sure about that, I stop reading as whenever I encounter such lazy writing! Somehow we're hearing and making more noise than ever about diversity and inclusion, yet we've collectively forgotten what diversity actually means...
- mistermann 4y ago
  > Not sure about that, I stop reading as whenever I encounter such lazy writing! Lazy writing is an assumption, and I don't think it is a remotely safe one. Keep in mind that there is a difference between the state of mind a person is in at the time they were writing a comment, and the state of mind they are in when they get called on what they say in their comment.