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The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't

The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't illegal but very personal: chat logs, email archives, contact lists, usernames & passwords, FTP info, master passwords to everything, OH and my entire life's worth of inventions and ideas. I'm not saying they'd steal them but remember, we're talking about the American Government here. The same one that can't account for billions of dollars in missing money. Lost 6.6 Billion in Iraq and doesn't know what happened to it. And doesn't know how or why a warehouse full of missiles in the middle east is empty. If that's how they treat their money and weapons, I wonder how they're going to treat my life's work. So... Just use TrueCrypt to create a hidden volume on a flash drive or SD card, keep everything else un-encrypted. They won't even know it's there. I've got a 32 GB SD card just for this purpose, it's got all my project files on it, thunderbird portable, my entire collection of inventions and business ideas, my life's work basically. If anyone were to plug that card in, it would just read "card has not been formatted yet". I've got a backup of it as well. If you have a hard drive full of torrented content or DVD rips that look like torrented content just make 2 TrueCrypt volumes, one that is visible (put some porn on it to simulate a "this is all I have hidden" excuse) and the other volume hidden (with all of your pirated content). They literally won't ever know it was there.

gcr 15y ago
The fact that you have truecrypt installed on your start menu is a dead giveaway.
- vessenes 15y ago
  No, he has a plausible deniability plan.
- gte910h 15y ago
  Truecrypt is also excellent full disk encryption in case your computer is stolen
- korny 15y ago
  I use truecrypt to encrypt lots of legitimate stuff. All my financial data is on a truecrypt volume on DropBox. And I suspect that folks with something to hide wouldn't find it hard to hide trucrypt itself.
  - jiggy2011 15y ago
    where you going to hide it? In another truecrypt volume? It would be easier just to only use it via a VM booted from a Linux Live CD.
Karunamon 15y ago
>Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents That's a bit of a leap, really. Also, Truecrypt's deniable encryption here doesn't seem like it would help, since they're talking at the computer level. Presumably, a power on or hard drive password. Assuming there's only one volume, you put that one in and the attacker has the keys to the kingdom. Besides that, most averages joes wouldn't go through this kind of trouble. If you're running in opposition to a ruling power who might, say, launch a missile at you from 30,000 feet while you're in foreign territory (not naming any names here), then you probably already know to cover your ass. On the other hand, an average joe thinking that they're cute by giving up the password to the concealed volume will only land a contempt charge when the file access times are checked.
- Simucal 15y ago
  TrueCrypt supports Hidden OS partitions much like its normal hidden containers and it asks for these passwords at boot. You could enter one password and have it boot into a boring Windows XP environment while the true password would boot to your actual environment with all your secret files.
  - Karunamon 15y ago
    There's the file time problem, though. Okay, let's say you're Joe Randomguy and you keep two XP partitions. One that you actively use and might have all manner of contraband on it, and another "boring" one for showing any would-be snoopers. It's Jan 2012. What do you think is going to happen when they see that the one you gave up the code to hasn't been touched since July 2011? Does Truecrypt have an option to not record date/time stamps on volumes, or better yet, scramble them?
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Standard practice is to use the one you don't care about for things you don't care about (which for most people, will be most things. Web browsing, gaming, emailing the aunt, whatever). Timestamps are going to be at the FS layer or higher, not much Truecrypt can realistically do about that..
shasta 15y ago
...unless Chris Norstrom is your real name and they know how to use a search engine to find this post.
- ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
  Remember, who we're talking about here. They're not exactly CSI agents. If someone really wants to smuggle data or keep it secret they WILL find a way. They could just cram it all on a MicroSD and put it under their tongue, or between their butt crack, super glued behind their scrotum, lodged up into their vagina, buried in their rectum, etc.... The methods are endless. This won't catch terrorists or pedophiles, it'll just catch innocent people like your mom who have some illegally downloaded songs on their laptop.
  - weekendlogic 15y ago
    Or simply use the internet. This is digital data we are talking about, there are much more effective means of moving it about.
patrickgzill 15y ago
You could even get a MicroSD card, stick it in your phone, and carry it across that way.
- tomflack 15y ago
  Stick it in your phone? Your phone is still liable for a search. Get a MicroSD card and stick it in an orifice.
andylei 15y ago
> The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? This isn't really a problem. Cops can get a warrant to search your house, and I'm pretty sure they'll find some things that aren't illegal, but are very personal. If you restrict evidence finding procedure to those in which only evidence (and nothing else) can be found, then I'm pretty sure you'll end up with no evidence.
- andylei 15y ago
  do people here honestly believe that its not okay for cops with warrants to search someone's encrypted hard drive because they might find something that's not illegal?
  - WalterBright 15y ago
    Many people have secrets that, if disclosed, could ruin their lives even though they are not illegal. For example, a politician with politically unacceptable activities. I'm sure you can come up with examples, such are regularly reported on the news.
    - tedunangst 15y ago
      How is that different from finding naughty stuff in the closet while searching for the murder weapon?
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    It is never okay for my privacy to be compromised. I don't care if they have a piece of paper that says that I'm not supposed to care. This has nothing to do with things that may or may not be "illegal".
    - tedunangst 15y ago
      How do you propose police execute a search warrant in someone's house? Or should the police never be allowed in your house under any circumstance?
bpd1069 15y ago
http://16s.us/TCHunt/index.php http://16s.us/TCHunt/index.php Finds hidden TrueCrypt volumes... :(
- Simucal 15y ago
  No, it doesn't. This finds files suspected to be TrueCrypt volumes and it does so by looking for certain heuristics. If your file passes a chi-square distribution test it is likely to be a TrueCrypt volume. If I create a file with a bunch of random data TCHunt would also likely peg it as a potential TC volume. However, it does not detect the existence of a hidden inner volume.
Simucal 15y ago
I'm curious what the courts would say when told that it is possible to have a hidden inner volume that is impossible to detect and when I hand over my key it may just be the outer containers, not the hidden inner container that I have unlocked.
- felipemnoa 15y ago
  That is like saying that you are guilty but there is no way to prove it.
  - Simucal 15y ago
    I agree. However, having the capability to have an undetectable hidden innner volume feels like it makes a lot of this moot. That is, as long as the inner volumes remain truly undetectable.
- ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
  The best way to hide something is with misdirection and dead ends. It's by letting someone win a little but not all the way. If you're a straight male just make a second inner hidden volume and put a ton of gay porn on it. After a few days of arguing with the court just reveal your password to it and they'll think "oh shit, this is what he was hiding. Well nothing to see here, moving on. That's all."
  - Jach 15y ago
    This is the best comment really... I brought up Truecrypt's Hidden OS feature a while ago (here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3415658 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3415658 ) and apparently in the UK you have to somehow prove the non-existence of such a thing. If you can't get them to leave you alone through such above trickery it becomes a fairly simple calculated choice deciding whether obstruction of justice is a less harmful penalty than what they want to find and charge you for after decryption.
  - cmundhe 15y ago
    genius.
sukuriant 15y ago
> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. I make it a point to not have pirated movies. I torrent linux distributions and free music (OC Remix); and I buy my software or use free alternatives. It may be true that most people have cracked software, pirated movies and [illegal] torrents, but it's not everyone.
- jwhitlark 15y ago
  I don't even think most people have those things. Many, sure, but while I am on your end of the spectrum (free software, etc.), many people don't care, or can't be bothered to get those thing, morals aside.
techiferous 15y ago
> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. I don't have any of these. I'm not being contrary, just saying you should update your view that everyone has these things.
- batista 15y ago
  "Everyone", in common language, is not equivalent to the mathematical "all elements in the set". It just means "almost everybody, excluding very few people that might as well be statistical error". Actually, even 95% of the people qualifies as "everyone" for all practical purposes. You might want to take a look at this: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- EwanG 15y ago
  Are you SURE you don't have any of these? That's one of the interesting things I've learned over the years. You may THINK you don't have any, or that you have never gone out of your way to get such. But that presumes that when you visited YouTube that the unlicensed excerpt you watched wasn't cached on your computer, and won't be found and used as evidence against you. That a friend or family member never borrowed your computer for a couple minutes to check email and left a copy of an attachment they shouldn't have had. And so on... Oh, and you think folks who have no problem casually planting a bag of something in your car would have a problem dropping some files on your computer if they think that would help? I'm not being contrary either, but to claim that you have nothing to hide could be seen as perjury for someone who wants to make sure they get you of something. And in this day and age I suspect the odds that you have something is higher than you may believe.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
viveksec 15y ago
This sounds airtight. The analogy with the physical safe is completely destroyed by True Crypt's hidden partitions. Any lawyers want to comment on this ?
- arantius 15y ago
  > This sounds airtight. The analogy with the physical safe is completely destroyed by True Crypt's hidden partitions. Because it's impossible for a safe to have an extra hidden compartment?

gcr 15y ago

The fact that you have truecrypt installed on your start menu is a dead giveaway.

vessenes 15y ago
No, he has a plausible deniability plan.
gte910h 15y ago
Truecrypt is also excellent full disk encryption in case your computer is stolen
korny 15y ago
I use truecrypt to encrypt lots of legitimate stuff. All my financial data is on a truecrypt volume on DropBox. And I suspect that folks with something to hide wouldn't find it hard to hide trucrypt itself.
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  where you going to hide it? In another truecrypt volume? It would be easier just to only use it via a VM booted from a Linux Live CD.

Karunamon 15y ago

>Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents That's a bit of a leap, really. Also, Truecrypt's deniable encryption here doesn't seem like it would help, since they're talking at the computer level. Presumably, a power on or hard drive password. Assuming there's only one volume, you put that one in and the attacker has the keys to the kingdom. Besides that, most averages joes wouldn't go through this kind of trouble. If you're running in opposition to a ruling power who might, say, launch a missile at you from 30,000 feet while you're in foreign territory (not naming any names here), then you probably already know to cover your ass. On the other hand, an average joe thinking that they're cute by giving up the password to the concealed volume will only land a contempt charge when the file access times are checked.

Simucal 15y ago
TrueCrypt supports Hidden OS partitions much like its normal hidden containers and it asks for these passwords at boot. You could enter one password and have it boot into a boring Windows XP environment while the true password would boot to your actual environment with all your secret files.
- Karunamon 15y ago
  There's the file time problem, though. Okay, let's say you're Joe Randomguy and you keep two XP partitions. One that you actively use and might have all manner of contraband on it, and another "boring" one for showing any would-be snoopers. It's Jan 2012. What do you think is going to happen when they see that the one you gave up the code to hasn't been touched since July 2011? Does Truecrypt have an option to not record date/time stamps on volumes, or better yet, scramble them?
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Standard practice is to use the one you don't care about for things you don't care about (which for most people, will be most things. Web browsing, gaming, emailing the aunt, whatever). Timestamps are going to be at the FS layer or higher, not much Truecrypt can realistically do about that..

shasta 15y ago

...unless Chris Norstrom is your real name and they know how to use a search engine to find this post.

ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
Remember, who we're talking about here. They're not exactly CSI agents. If someone really wants to smuggle data or keep it secret they WILL find a way. They could just cram it all on a MicroSD and put it under their tongue, or between their butt crack, super glued behind their scrotum, lodged up into their vagina, buried in their rectum, etc.... The methods are endless. This won't catch terrorists or pedophiles, it'll just catch innocent people like your mom who have some illegally downloaded songs on their laptop.
- weekendlogic 15y ago
  Or simply use the internet. This is digital data we are talking about, there are much more effective means of moving it about.

patrickgzill 15y ago

You could even get a MicroSD card, stick it in your phone, and carry it across that way.

tomflack 15y ago
Stick it in your phone? Your phone is still liable for a search. Get a MicroSD card and stick it in an orifice.

andylei 15y ago

> The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? This isn't really a problem. Cops can get a warrant to search your house, and I'm pretty sure they'll find some things that aren't illegal, but are very personal. If you restrict evidence finding procedure to those in which only evidence (and nothing else) can be found, then I'm pretty sure you'll end up with no evidence.

andylei 15y ago
do people here honestly believe that its not okay for cops with warrants to search someone's encrypted hard drive because they might find something that's not illegal?
- WalterBright 15y ago
  Many people have secrets that, if disclosed, could ruin their lives even though they are not illegal. For example, a politician with politically unacceptable activities. I'm sure you can come up with examples, such are regularly reported on the news.
  - tedunangst 15y ago
    How is that different from finding naughty stuff in the closet while searching for the murder weapon?
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  It is never okay for my privacy to be compromised. I don't care if they have a piece of paper that says that I'm not supposed to care. This has nothing to do with things that may or may not be "illegal".
  - tedunangst 15y ago
    How do you propose police execute a search warrant in someone's house? Or should the police never be allowed in your house under any circumstance?

bpd1069 15y ago

http://16s.us/TCHunt/index.php http://16s.us/TCHunt/index.php Finds hidden TrueCrypt volumes... :(

Simucal 15y ago
No, it doesn't. This finds files suspected to be TrueCrypt volumes and it does so by looking for certain heuristics. If your file passes a chi-square distribution test it is likely to be a TrueCrypt volume. If I create a file with a bunch of random data TCHunt would also likely peg it as a potential TC volume. However, it does not detect the existence of a hidden inner volume.

Simucal 15y ago

I'm curious what the courts would say when told that it is possible to have a hidden inner volume that is impossible to detect and when I hand over my key it may just be the outer containers, not the hidden inner container that I have unlocked.

felipemnoa 15y ago
That is like saying that you are guilty but there is no way to prove it.
- Simucal 15y ago
  I agree. However, having the capability to have an undetectable hidden innner volume feels like it makes a lot of this moot. That is, as long as the inner volumes remain truly undetectable.
ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
The best way to hide something is with misdirection and dead ends. It's by letting someone win a little but not all the way. If you're a straight male just make a second inner hidden volume and put a ton of gay porn on it. After a few days of arguing with the court just reveal your password to it and they'll think "oh shit, this is what he was hiding. Well nothing to see here, moving on. That's all."
- Jach 15y ago
  This is the best comment really... I brought up Truecrypt's Hidden OS feature a while ago (here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3415658 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3415658 ) and apparently in the UK you have to somehow prove the non-existence of such a thing. If you can't get them to leave you alone through such above trickery it becomes a fairly simple calculated choice deciding whether obstruction of justice is a less harmful penalty than what they want to find and charge you for after decryption.
- cmundhe 15y ago
  genius.

sukuriant 15y ago

> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. I make it a point to not have pirated movies. I torrent linux distributions and free music (OC Remix); and I buy my software or use free alternatives. It may be true that most people have cracked software, pirated movies and [illegal] torrents, but it's not everyone.

jwhitlark 15y ago
I don't even think most people have those things. Many, sure, but while I am on your end of the spectrum (free software, etc.), many people don't care, or can't be bothered to get those thing, morals aside.

techiferous 15y ago

> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. I don't have any of these. I'm not being contrary, just saying you should update your view that everyone has these things.

batista 15y ago
"Everyone", in common language, is not equivalent to the mathematical "all elements in the set". It just means "almost everybody, excluding very few people that might as well be statistical error". Actually, even 95% of the people qualifies as "everyone" for all practical purposes. You might want to take a look at this: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
EwanG 15y ago
Are you SURE you don't have any of these? That's one of the interesting things I've learned over the years. You may THINK you don't have any, or that you have never gone out of your way to get such. But that presumes that when you visited YouTube that the unlicensed excerpt you watched wasn't cached on your computer, and won't be found and used as evidence against you. That a friend or family member never borrowed your computer for a couple minutes to check email and left a copy of an attachment they shouldn't have had. And so on... Oh, and you think folks who have no problem casually planting a bag of something in your car would have a problem dropping some files on your computer if they think that would help? I'm not being contrary either, but to claim that you have nothing to hide could be seen as perjury for someone who wants to make sure they get you of something. And in this day and age I suspect the odds that you have something is higher than you may believe.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

viveksec 15y ago

This sounds airtight. The analogy with the physical safe is completely destroyed by True Crypt's hidden partitions. Any lawyers want to comment on this ?

arantius 15y ago
> This sounds airtight. The analogy with the physical safe is completely destroyed by True Crypt's hidden partitions. Because it's impossible for a safe to have an extra hidden compartment?