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It's not that impressive if you consider that the current government in Germany is driving a massive de-industrialization campaign. Destroying the own car indus

by sprash 4y ago

It's not that impressive if you consider that the current government in Germany is driving a massive de-industrialization campaign. Destroying the own car industry fits well in the agenda.

siva7 4y ago
They're not destroying it but forcing them to acknowledge the truth about climate.
- sprash 4y ago
  When is China going to "acknowledge the truth about climate"? When it finished building the hundreds of planned coal power plants? This BS is all a pure geopolitics show with obvious traitors in power of western governments.
  - brazzy 4y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China
- throwaway87915 4y ago
  Isn't that about the fuel and not the vehicle? If we manufactured diesel out of wood or algae, the same cars would suddenly become very green - in case of algae cultivation for fuel, you can reach carbon negativity (the process net-decreased carbon in atmosphere). This is likely more green than building battery electric vehicles with large capacity. Batteries are great but cars don't need more than 100km of charge. Longer trips should be on bio-diesel or bio-gas.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    The process cannot be carbon negative unless you sequester the algae somehow. All the carbon the algae captures while growing will be released when they decompose.
    - bratwurst3000 4y ago
      Hmm could be that the way is co2->algea->hydrocarbon->H2 and carbon as a byproduct. Still I dont think its Carbon negativ because they rather make hydrocarbons out of it and the production uses energy plus. Only wanted to state the possibility of Carbon negativ as real.
    - throwaway87915 4y ago
      It works out carbon negative because pieces of algae fall down to the ocean floor and remain there, as a side effect of algae cultivation. It's a significant number.
  - bratwurst3000 4y ago
    You are right about biodiesel. Most energydense crops that we grow are used for meat production and generates a shitlod of greenhouse gases on the way. Less meat consumption would mean more crops could be used for biodiesel
    - kitkat_new 4y ago
      and bio diesel production is worse for the climate than fossil diesel, because of the amount of agricultural work that needs to be done
      - bratwurst3000 4y ago
        Hmm ok. Do you have sources for that? Their is a certain amount of energy that is needed to process the crop to diesel and also for production. But is it that bad? Even if those energys are provided by biodiesel and renewables?
      - nforgerit 4y ago
        Plus in the context of climate change we'll probably need every square-foot of farm field to actually produce food and not fulfill the wet dreams of every Porsche 911 driver which can be very efficiently dealt with by e-mobility.
        bratwurst3000 4y ago
        Its not about „wet dreams of a porsche driver“ Its about the transition phase between now and a full electric vehicle fleet. Combustion engine will exist in the next 20-40 years. I am not an expert or sth. If you have links or could expand a bit more on why fossil fuel would be preferable, that would be nice. Thanks
- incrudible 4y ago
  The truth about the climate is that whatever Germany does, it does not really make a difference, but also that what they have done (rolling out renewables) did not even work (high CO2 footprint, dependency on gas, coal and electricity imports).
  - nforgerit 4y ago
    You're parroting populist statements of political parties who actively destroyed the chance Germany had to transform their energy system and industry towards green energy. And now the same people are claiming that they were right from the beginning. The "truth" is that the Energiewende was a wise decision from early 2000s for Germany making a case that it'd be possible to transform an industry nation to renewables and possibly export technology to other countries since we all frantically should figure out ways to reduce our carbon emissions. Germany would be at ~80% electricity from renewables by now if the Merkel government in 2013 wouldn't have stopped it: Renewables were heavily subsidized by the German electricity customers and was so successful around 2012 that electricity prices skyrocketed; instead of finding other ways to further boost the building of more renewables while lowering electricity prices for the customers, they just stopped it. And when Merkel also irrationally decided quit nuclear energy after Fukushima even earlier (2022) and Russia quit delivering cheap gas, we're now in this pity situation in which we have to burn coal like its 1920. So don't claim it "did not even work" because they didn't really try.
    - incrudible 4y ago
      This is the pathological blaming of foreign influence on the failure of an ideology to deliver on its promises. It would have worked, if only. First of all, you do not know that. Secondly, it did in fact not work. Your solution did not take into account whatever factor made it fail, so it failed.
      - nforgerit 4y ago
        Ha, in Germany the people who use the word "ideology" are almost always chief ideologists themselves. I'm not even blaming "foreign influence". We have good data that car manufacturers, energy and chemical companies didn't want to risk their profitable fossil-based business models and thus lobbied the according governments. > It would have worked, if only. First of all, you do not know that. Well, as I said, it worked that well that electricity prices skyrocketed and Germany set a world record in renewable electricity production in ~2012. We had >200k employees in a (IIRC) world leading solar industry. Nowadays you can only buy Chinese solar products while the German solar industry is dead. > Secondly, it did in fact not work. Your solution did not take into account whatever factor made it fail, so it failed. That kind of argument opens up a can of worms where everything is legit. Just because people don't "like" some project would legitimize harming the country they've sworn to protect. Why oh why is my first association the lies about Brexit.
lispm 4y ago
In reality Germany just last year reached the highest number of cars ever: 48.54 million cars. Now with roughly 84 million people.

by sprash 4y ago

It's not that impressive if you consider that the current government in Germany is driving a massive de-industrialization campaign. Destroying the own car industry fits well in the agenda.

siva7 4y ago

They're not destroying it but forcing them to acknowledge the truth about climate.

sprash 4y ago
When is China going to "acknowledge the truth about climate"? When it finished building the hundreds of planned coal power plants? This BS is all a pure geopolitics show with obvious traitors in power of western governments.
- brazzy 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China
throwaway87915 4y ago
Isn't that about the fuel and not the vehicle? If we manufactured diesel out of wood or algae, the same cars would suddenly become very green - in case of algae cultivation for fuel, you can reach carbon negativity (the process net-decreased carbon in atmosphere). This is likely more green than building battery electric vehicles with large capacity. Batteries are great but cars don't need more than 100km of charge. Longer trips should be on bio-diesel or bio-gas.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  The process cannot be carbon negative unless you sequester the algae somehow. All the carbon the algae captures while growing will be released when they decompose.
  - bratwurst3000 4y ago
    Hmm could be that the way is co2->algea->hydrocarbon->H2 and carbon as a byproduct. Still I dont think its Carbon negativ because they rather make hydrocarbons out of it and the production uses energy plus. Only wanted to state the possibility of Carbon negativ as real.
  - throwaway87915 4y ago
    It works out carbon negative because pieces of algae fall down to the ocean floor and remain there, as a side effect of algae cultivation. It's a significant number.
- bratwurst3000 4y ago
  You are right about biodiesel. Most energydense crops that we grow are used for meat production and generates a shitlod of greenhouse gases on the way. Less meat consumption would mean more crops could be used for biodiesel
  - kitkat_new 4y ago
    and bio diesel production is worse for the climate than fossil diesel, because of the amount of agricultural work that needs to be done
    - bratwurst3000 4y ago
      Hmm ok. Do you have sources for that? Their is a certain amount of energy that is needed to process the crop to diesel and also for production. But is it that bad? Even if those energys are provided by biodiesel and renewables?
    - nforgerit 4y ago
      Plus in the context of climate change we'll probably need every square-foot of farm field to actually produce food and not fulfill the wet dreams of every Porsche 911 driver which can be very efficiently dealt with by e-mobility.
      - bratwurst3000 4y ago
        Its not about „wet dreams of a porsche driver“ Its about the transition phase between now and a full electric vehicle fleet. Combustion engine will exist in the next 20-40 years. I am not an expert or sth. If you have links or could expand a bit more on why fossil fuel would be preferable, that would be nice. Thanks
incrudible 4y ago
The truth about the climate is that whatever Germany does, it does not really make a difference, but also that what they have done (rolling out renewables) did not even work (high CO2 footprint, dependency on gas, coal and electricity imports).
- nforgerit 4y ago
  You're parroting populist statements of political parties who actively destroyed the chance Germany had to transform their energy system and industry towards green energy. And now the same people are claiming that they were right from the beginning. The "truth" is that the Energiewende was a wise decision from early 2000s for Germany making a case that it'd be possible to transform an industry nation to renewables and possibly export technology to other countries since we all frantically should figure out ways to reduce our carbon emissions. Germany would be at ~80% electricity from renewables by now if the Merkel government in 2013 wouldn't have stopped it: Renewables were heavily subsidized by the German electricity customers and was so successful around 2012 that electricity prices skyrocketed; instead of finding other ways to further boost the building of more renewables while lowering electricity prices for the customers, they just stopped it. And when Merkel also irrationally decided quit nuclear energy after Fukushima even earlier (2022) and Russia quit delivering cheap gas, we're now in this pity situation in which we have to burn coal like its 1920. So don't claim it "did not even work" because they didn't really try.
  - incrudible 4y ago
    This is the pathological blaming of foreign influence on the failure of an ideology to deliver on its promises. It would have worked, if only. First of all, you do not know that. Secondly, it did in fact not work. Your solution did not take into account whatever factor made it fail, so it failed.
    - nforgerit 4y ago
      Ha, in Germany the people who use the word "ideology" are almost always chief ideologists themselves. I'm not even blaming "foreign influence". We have good data that car manufacturers, energy and chemical companies didn't want to risk their profitable fossil-based business models and thus lobbied the according governments. > It would have worked, if only. First of all, you do not know that. Well, as I said, it worked that well that electricity prices skyrocketed and Germany set a world record in renewable electricity production in ~2012. We had >200k employees in a (IIRC) world leading solar industry. Nowadays you can only buy Chinese solar products while the German solar industry is dead. > Secondly, it did in fact not work. Your solution did not take into account whatever factor made it fail, so it failed. That kind of argument opens up a can of worms where everything is legit. Just because people don't "like" some project would legitimize harming the country they've sworn to protect. Why oh why is my first association the lies about Brexit.

lispm 4y ago

In reality Germany just last year reached the highest number of cars ever: 48.54 million cars. Now with roughly 84 million people.