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I moved in to a newly renovated Victorian house here in England in December, which we bought from a property developer. It was completely rewired, with everyth

by nly 4y ago

I moved in to a newly renovated Victorian house here in England in December, which we bought from a property developer. It was completely rewired, with everything signed off and certified by a qualified electrician, as per legal requirements. Most properties in the UK have common earth/ground and neutral wiring (they're the same wire, the "earth" just bypasses your main board... there's no earth spike). Anyway, I bought a socket tester after noticing an outlet or two didn't work. Went around and tested the whole house... half of the 30 electrical outlets in the house were defective, and at least 4 were wired incorrectly such that they were live on the neutral pin (which means they're live when the switch is off). Some had earthing issues. Fortunately the RCBO's work as advertised. Don't risk your life with this stuff, test it all yourself. A tester will cost you $10

tblt 4y ago
I've seen houses with ground bonded to the copper water/gas pipes...and upon further inspection they were supplied with plastic piping outside of their property boundary. Yikes. My understanding is that neutral goes to ground at the substation
- mattpallissard 4y ago
  > My understanding is that neutral goes to ground at the substation Close. It's at the transformer. North American "split phase" power has the neutral center tapped into the transformer winding. The two 120v lines are phased 180° from each other with respect to neutral. Line to line gets you 240v, line to neutral is half that, 120v. Downstream in the breaker panel itself, the grounding conductor (ground) and grounded conductor (neutral) are bonded at the panel. The ground wire is basically just an alternate path back to the box.
- brewtide 4y ago
  They are bonded to ground so that if a hot happens to run or chaff up against them, you don't have hot water or gas lines conducting in your house -- a dead short to ground will trigger a breaker overload (near) immediately assuming they are working correctly. If these pipes were not grounded, they are just pretty scary conductive pieces of metal strewn throughout walls and ceilings, and usually terminating at a place where people physically contact, as well.
gnfargbl 4y ago
That's not acceptable, and I would consider complaining to the trade body of whichever electrician provided the EICR for the property. NICEIC and the like regularly check the standards of work of their members, and it sounds like this one needs some special attention. It's great that we have RCBOs and RCDs everywhere these days, but BS7671 still has a requirement for "good workmanship by skilled (electrically) or instructed (electrically) persons".
mytailorisrich 4y ago
That is really something to be reported to the relevant authorities because it indicates that this "qualified electrician" did not know what he was doing and did not perform tests... I do DIY electric work (as much as permitted) here in the UK and I always use a socket tester to check correct wiring and Earth connection. That's a no brainer. Side comment: that's why I am always wary of properties refurbished with the aim of reselling them, or properties where the owner "has just <built extension | converted loft | etc>".
dmd 4y ago
> which means they're live when the switch is off For anyone else confused by this - it's a British thing. In America, all outlets are live all the time. British outlets have a switch per-outlet, built in.
- zenexer 4y ago
  This would affect switched outlets in the US, too. When we install light switches in the US, we usually only use a single pole switch that breaks hot, not neutral. But yeah, British outlets do have switches directly on them. And fuses in all their plugs—awesome stuff.
  - amluto 4y ago
    By “awesome” you mean awesomely bad? The old ring circuit wiring in the UK did not adequately protect the wires in the walls against thermal overload. If you drew too much current from a single outlet, you could overheat the wires without blowing a fuse or tripping a breaker. So fuses were added to the plugs, since rewiring was impractical and reducing the house’s fuse or breaker rating would be annoying. In the US and elsewhere, equivalent protection comes from correctly sized breakers in the panel.
    - zenexer 4y ago
      Ring circuits are terrible, but fused plugs are not. > In the US and elsewhere, equivalent protection comes from correctly sized breakers in the panel. That’s a common misconception. Your circuit breakers are rated to protect the wires in your wall—nothing else. The wires you plug into your wall receptacles are rarely rated to handle full capacity of that circuit breaker and can be overloaded without tripping that breaker. A common example of this is an extension cord that breaks off into multiple receptacles on the end. Depending on the quality of the cable, you might be able to draw 20A through that cable and start a fire without ever tripping your breaker. If each plug is fitted with a fuse that matches the rest of the cable, this issue is largely mitigated. That’s why Christmas lights often have fuses in the plugs: those cables aren’t able to handle the maximum load that your circuit breaker and in-wall wiring can tolerate.
ajb 4y ago
There is definitely supposed to be an earth spike, or something equivalent such as bonding to a metal pipe that extends underground. Earth is supposed be be a separate wire because it's not supposed to carry current- current on earth detects that something is wrong. The neutral wire carries an equal and opposite current to live. (what we call neutral is not exactly the same as the neutral on a split phase system like in the US)
- aequitas 4y ago
  > something equivalent such as bonding to a metal pipe that extends underground. I discovered recently that this is advised against, at least in my country, nowadays since metal water pipes are being replaced with plastic ones. But sometimes not up into the house. So it might look you have a metal water pipe running in the ground. But it cuts off to plastic just outside your house. And it might not be buried deep enough to act as a proper ground. So always test with proper equipment what your earth ground resistance is and don’t assume anything.

by nly 4y ago

tblt 4y ago

I've seen houses with ground bonded to the copper water/gas pipes...and upon further inspection they were supplied with plastic piping outside of their property boundary. Yikes. My understanding is that neutral goes to ground at the substation

mattpallissard 4y ago
> My understanding is that neutral goes to ground at the substation Close. It's at the transformer. North American "split phase" power has the neutral center tapped into the transformer winding. The two 120v lines are phased 180° from each other with respect to neutral. Line to line gets you 240v, line to neutral is half that, 120v. Downstream in the breaker panel itself, the grounding conductor (ground) and grounded conductor (neutral) are bonded at the panel. The ground wire is basically just an alternate path back to the box.
brewtide 4y ago
They are bonded to ground so that if a hot happens to run or chaff up against them, you don't have hot water or gas lines conducting in your house -- a dead short to ground will trigger a breaker overload (near) immediately assuming they are working correctly. If these pipes were not grounded, they are just pretty scary conductive pieces of metal strewn throughout walls and ceilings, and usually terminating at a place where people physically contact, as well.

gnfargbl 4y ago

That's not acceptable, and I would consider complaining to the trade body of whichever electrician provided the EICR for the property. NICEIC and the like regularly check the standards of work of their members, and it sounds like this one needs some special attention. It's great that we have RCBOs and RCDs everywhere these days, but BS7671 still has a requirement for "good workmanship by skilled (electrically) or instructed (electrically) persons".

mytailorisrich 4y ago

That is really something to be reported to the relevant authorities because it indicates that this "qualified electrician" did not know what he was doing and did not perform tests... I do DIY electric work (as much as permitted) here in the UK and I always use a socket tester to check correct wiring and Earth connection. That's a no brainer. Side comment: that's why I am always wary of properties refurbished with the aim of reselling them, or properties where the owner "has just <built extension | converted loft | etc>".

dmd 4y ago

> which means they're live when the switch is off For anyone else confused by this - it's a British thing. In America, all outlets are live all the time. British outlets have a switch per-outlet, built in.

zenexer 4y ago
This would affect switched outlets in the US, too. When we install light switches in the US, we usually only use a single pole switch that breaks hot, not neutral. But yeah, British outlets do have switches directly on them. And fuses in all their plugs—awesome stuff.
- amluto 4y ago
  By “awesome” you mean awesomely bad? The old ring circuit wiring in the UK did not adequately protect the wires in the walls against thermal overload. If you drew too much current from a single outlet, you could overheat the wires without blowing a fuse or tripping a breaker. So fuses were added to the plugs, since rewiring was impractical and reducing the house’s fuse or breaker rating would be annoying. In the US and elsewhere, equivalent protection comes from correctly sized breakers in the panel.
  - zenexer 4y ago
    Ring circuits are terrible, but fused plugs are not. > In the US and elsewhere, equivalent protection comes from correctly sized breakers in the panel. That’s a common misconception. Your circuit breakers are rated to protect the wires in your wall—nothing else. The wires you plug into your wall receptacles are rarely rated to handle full capacity of that circuit breaker and can be overloaded without tripping that breaker. A common example of this is an extension cord that breaks off into multiple receptacles on the end. Depending on the quality of the cable, you might be able to draw 20A through that cable and start a fire without ever tripping your breaker. If each plug is fitted with a fuse that matches the rest of the cable, this issue is largely mitigated. That’s why Christmas lights often have fuses in the plugs: those cables aren’t able to handle the maximum load that your circuit breaker and in-wall wiring can tolerate.

ajb 4y ago

There is definitely supposed to be an earth spike, or something equivalent such as bonding to a metal pipe that extends underground. Earth is supposed be be a separate wire because it's not supposed to carry current- current on earth detects that something is wrong. The neutral wire carries an equal and opposite current to live. (what we call neutral is not exactly the same as the neutral on a split phase system like in the US)

aequitas 4y ago
> something equivalent such as bonding to a metal pipe that extends underground. I discovered recently that this is advised against, at least in my country, nowadays since metal water pipes are being replaced with plastic ones. But sometimes not up into the house. So it might look you have a metal water pipe running in the ground. But it cuts off to plastic just outside your house. And it might not be buried deep enough to act as a proper ground. So always test with proper equipment what your earth ground resistance is and don’t assume anything.