4 ms·

This is outdated, currently the planned start date is May 1st. However, there seem to be still discussions about implementation details (availability only in an

This is outdated, currently the planned start date is May 1st. However, there seem to be still discussions about implementation details (availability only in an app vs. as a chip card or on paper, use of a subscription model). It's a horrible mess - and still too expensive for people with low incomes. In hindsight, it is amazing that the 9 Euro ticket experiment last year worked at all.

smcl 4y ago
It's at least good that they're moving in this direction at all. Maybe the pricing isn't spot-on, or the capacity isn't there, or there are debates over the ticketing or there are some other issues. But it seems to me that Germany has recognised the importance of encouraging rail travel, and they're taking the first steps in doing so.
- Aachen 4y ago
  I earn enough to afford the current "BahnCard 100", but the pricing versus value is such that I'm not remotely considering it. That means that taking public transport is a hassle: - always need to buy a ticket: talk to a driver (who usually acts annoyed on behalf of the whole bus that you are holding up) or waste time trying to figure out ticket machines when you should be catching a connection; - always need to carry cash (fun fact: there's a line from DE into NL with a big warning sign where there'd usually be ads, saying that in DE you can pay with cash only and in NL by card only, so come prepared!); - need to check whether your ticket from city A to C is valid when taking a route that goes through city B where you'd like to make an intermediate stop (I called support for this once and could not for the life of me get a straight yes/no answer, she kept saying (iirc) wenn es auf dem direkten Weg ist which... is an intermediate stop direct ever? I'm pretty sure the answer for ticket validity is yes but she sounded like no, I'm still not sure 3 years later and I still commute between those towns, just usually via a different connection that doesn't stop in B); - in many regions, you can't buy a ticket online via the national rail company, you need to separately deal with the local line operators to make your trip planning even more fun! In NL I've got a chipcard plus a 2€/month subscription which gives me 40% off on weekends but, more importantly, lets me beep in and out of any mode of transport without wasting anyone's time and it automatically bills my bank account (instead of having to top it up prepaid, as is the default without subscription). I go where I please and don't have to deal with billing. That's why I'll be getting the 49€ subscription straight away. I want to use public transport, but besides the limitations of the system (how fast you get from A to B), it's currently additionally a hassle to deal with billing. Even if the poorest aren't helped, everyone else now has less of an excuse not to use it. I'm much more okay getting an extra ticket for the long distant transport (intercity) that is usually just one leg and is not a spontaneous journey anyway.
  - lispm 4y ago
    > always need to buy a ticket I buy all my tickets online. That's largely possible in Germany. I can't remember when I last needed to buy a physical ticket.
    - Aachen 4y ago
      Bahn afaik isn't allowed to sell you tickets when the start and destination are within a regional operator, and my regional operator (to get to work) doesn't have a web shop. The bus drivers are comically confused when I try to buy "einen Viererkahrte zu Aachen, drei Stück" so that I don't have to deal with it every other office day (this I can pay with a convenient 50€ bill and lasts about a month, give or take). Then I still have to stamp them per trip and will be last in line for a seat, but at least I don't have to bother the driver most days.
      - lispm 4y ago
        When I book a train ticket, the regional trains are already included. My local public transport system (HVV) has online & smart phone ticketing for many many years now. A regional operator where the ticket can't be bought online or via a smartphone should be really really rare in Germany by now. Which operator is it, which has no online payment option?
        Aachen 4y ago
        AVV.de, the menu options for ticket buying are "am Automat" and "Vorverkaufstellen" which is a list of physical stores. ...which I guess is why I never looked further and saw they have an app now. Never heard of Naveo before, maybe it was introduced recently? Either way, that looks like it might now be possible! Why did no driver ever mention / did the buses/stations not advertise this before it's ripe for being replaced with the 50 euro subscription?!
        gerl1ng 4y ago
        Well, you could of course use some tickets from other operators in the same region. In NRW there is the handy eezy NRW[0] ticket system where you just pay the kilometers travelled "how the bird flies". So even the connections that would be expensive otherwise could be cheap. I use it sometimes for the last bit of my long distance travel if I visit my parents (not directly in VRR region but in Regionalverkehr Münsterland (RMV)). It states that it works for all stops within NRW - which is annoying as one of the busses I could take actually goes to Osnabrück (Niedersachsen) and I cannot use - even though it's actually operated by the NRW regional transit provider. Overall public transit is / was a mess in germany and 9€ Ticket really was an eye opener on how easy it could be to hop on and off of everything that's moving however you like. [0] https://www.vrr.de/de/fahrplan-mobilitaet/eezy-vrr/ https://www.vrr.de/de/fahrplan-mobilitaet/eezy-vrr/
eastbound 4y ago
> still too expensive for people with low incomes It can be said about anything. 49€ per month for transportation in all cities is 5% of a low-income salary; Saying that this effort is not enough validates the theorem that no government is left enough for a leftist to stop saying “It’s not really left”.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  It’s more that the 9€-ticket did some serious price anchoring.
- Aachen 4y ago
  Do we have to polarize this simple question of whether 50 euros for transportation is affordable for specific income groups as a leftist versus rightist theory thing?
- _ph_ 4y ago
  There are unfortunately too many people in Germany, who will struggle even with 49€, though it is a huge improvement for many. I am thinking mostly about retired people with a small pension, which struggle to just pay for food towards the end of the month. For them, the 9€ ticket was a game-changer, I hope there will be some support programs to make the 49€ ticket available for all retired people. The fact, that it covers regional trains all over Germany means a lot for their mobility.
- projektfu 4y ago
  If 49€ is too much, how are they getting to work now? If they can walk or bike to work, they don't need rail. If their current fare is less, they presumably can continue using it. In my area, lower-income workers still usually need cars. They spend at least this much on gas each month. There's a lack of reliable transit options which makes a vicious cycle of low ridership and fewer options. I wish we could build out the bus/rail system we need and promote it. The city's not that big and everywhere could be within 30 minutes if buses and trains were as frequent as they are in other countries. I think the German transit authorities are looking at the situation and saying that there are a lot of people who currently drive that could be given a little incentive to take rail. Sometimes when you make something free, people stop valuing it. If the goal is to boost ridership, a nominal cost makes people want to get their money's worth by riding. But at free, they might continue to drive and keep the train just for days when the car is in the shop. People are weird like that.
dathinab 4y ago
It's not really that bad. Practically for most areas in Germany it can be available from May the 1st as an in-app only ticket. That is what matters. --- PS: No idea why anyone is discussion chip card, it's not an option. Every public transport system in Germany (should) have the capability to scan QR codes from APP or paper. Partially due to DB RE/RB/IC/ICE trickets having "include local transportation at start/destination" options. (And I think roughly that system was also used for the 9€ ticket.). Chip cards on the other hand can not be read by many public transportation systems and even if it would be a mess due to how such systems work, i.e. chip card systems (as used by public transportation) are generally not build to be accessed across disjoint independent systems and are much less flexible. They have their benefits, but non of the benefits matter for a person bound monthly fix price ticket in the context of how public transportation works in Germany. So integrating chip cards would be just a grate wast of resources IMHO.
- abliefern 4y ago
  What do you mean it's not an option? I already ordered the ticket as a chip card here in Berlin.
  - dathinab 4y ago
    I did that now, too .... I seem to have had very wrong information.
- anticensor 4y ago
  Contactless paper tickets exist (MiFare Ultralight and others). Those cold be utilised to generate a non-refillable start/destination ticket.

smcl 4y ago

It's at least good that they're moving in this direction at all. Maybe the pricing isn't spot-on, or the capacity isn't there, or there are debates over the ticketing or there are some other issues. But it seems to me that Germany has recognised the importance of encouraging rail travel, and they're taking the first steps in doing so.

Aachen 4y ago
I earn enough to afford the current "BahnCard 100", but the pricing versus value is such that I'm not remotely considering it. That means that taking public transport is a hassle: - always need to buy a ticket: talk to a driver (who usually acts annoyed on behalf of the whole bus that you are holding up) or waste time trying to figure out ticket machines when you should be catching a connection; - always need to carry cash (fun fact: there's a line from DE into NL with a big warning sign where there'd usually be ads, saying that in DE you can pay with cash only and in NL by card only, so come prepared!); - need to check whether your ticket from city A to C is valid when taking a route that goes through city B where you'd like to make an intermediate stop (I called support for this once and could not for the life of me get a straight yes/no answer, she kept saying (iirc) wenn es auf dem direkten Weg ist which... is an intermediate stop direct ever? I'm pretty sure the answer for ticket validity is yes but she sounded like no, I'm still not sure 3 years later and I still commute between those towns, just usually via a different connection that doesn't stop in B); - in many regions, you can't buy a ticket online via the national rail company, you need to separately deal with the local line operators to make your trip planning even more fun! In NL I've got a chipcard plus a 2€/month subscription which gives me 40% off on weekends but, more importantly, lets me beep in and out of any mode of transport without wasting anyone's time and it automatically bills my bank account (instead of having to top it up prepaid, as is the default without subscription). I go where I please and don't have to deal with billing. That's why I'll be getting the 49€ subscription straight away. I want to use public transport, but besides the limitations of the system (how fast you get from A to B), it's currently additionally a hassle to deal with billing. Even if the poorest aren't helped, everyone else now has less of an excuse not to use it. I'm much more okay getting an extra ticket for the long distant transport (intercity) that is usually just one leg and is not a spontaneous journey anyway.
- lispm 4y ago
  > always need to buy a ticket I buy all my tickets online. That's largely possible in Germany. I can't remember when I last needed to buy a physical ticket.
  - Aachen 4y ago
    Bahn afaik isn't allowed to sell you tickets when the start and destination are within a regional operator, and my regional operator (to get to work) doesn't have a web shop. The bus drivers are comically confused when I try to buy "einen Viererkahrte zu Aachen, drei Stück" so that I don't have to deal with it every other office day (this I can pay with a convenient 50€ bill and lasts about a month, give or take). Then I still have to stamp them per trip and will be last in line for a seat, but at least I don't have to bother the driver most days.
    - lispm 4y ago
      When I book a train ticket, the regional trains are already included. My local public transport system (HVV) has online & smart phone ticketing for many many years now. A regional operator where the ticket can't be bought online or via a smartphone should be really really rare in Germany by now. Which operator is it, which has no online payment option?
      - Aachen 4y ago
        AVV.de, the menu options for ticket buying are "am Automat" and "Vorverkaufstellen" which is a list of physical stores. ...which I guess is why I never looked further and saw they have an app now. Never heard of Naveo before, maybe it was introduced recently? Either way, that looks like it might now be possible! Why did no driver ever mention / did the buses/stations not advertise this before it's ripe for being replaced with the 50 euro subscription?!
        gerl1ng 4y ago
        Well, you could of course use some tickets from other operators in the same region. In NRW there is the handy eezy NRW[0] ticket system where you just pay the kilometers travelled "how the bird flies". So even the connections that would be expensive otherwise could be cheap. I use it sometimes for the last bit of my long distance travel if I visit my parents (not directly in VRR region but in Regionalverkehr Münsterland (RMV)). It states that it works for all stops within NRW - which is annoying as one of the busses I could take actually goes to Osnabrück (Niedersachsen) and I cannot use - even though it's actually operated by the NRW regional transit provider. Overall public transit is / was a mess in germany and 9€ Ticket really was an eye opener on how easy it could be to hop on and off of everything that's moving however you like. [0] https://www.vrr.de/de/fahrplan-mobilitaet/eezy-vrr/ https://www.vrr.de/de/fahrplan-mobilitaet/eezy-vrr/

eastbound 4y ago

> still too expensive for people with low incomes It can be said about anything. 49€ per month for transportation in all cities is 5% of a low-income salary; Saying that this effort is not enough validates the theorem that no government is left enough for a leftist to stop saying “It’s not really left”.

Semaphor 4y ago
It’s more that the 9€-ticket did some serious price anchoring.
Aachen 4y ago
Do we have to polarize this simple question of whether 50 euros for transportation is affordable for specific income groups as a leftist versus rightist theory thing?
_ph_ 4y ago
There are unfortunately too many people in Germany, who will struggle even with 49€, though it is a huge improvement for many. I am thinking mostly about retired people with a small pension, which struggle to just pay for food towards the end of the month. For them, the 9€ ticket was a game-changer, I hope there will be some support programs to make the 49€ ticket available for all retired people. The fact, that it covers regional trains all over Germany means a lot for their mobility.
projektfu 4y ago
If 49€ is too much, how are they getting to work now? If they can walk or bike to work, they don't need rail. If their current fare is less, they presumably can continue using it. In my area, lower-income workers still usually need cars. They spend at least this much on gas each month. There's a lack of reliable transit options which makes a vicious cycle of low ridership and fewer options. I wish we could build out the bus/rail system we need and promote it. The city's not that big and everywhere could be within 30 minutes if buses and trains were as frequent as they are in other countries. I think the German transit authorities are looking at the situation and saying that there are a lot of people who currently drive that could be given a little incentive to take rail. Sometimes when you make something free, people stop valuing it. If the goal is to boost ridership, a nominal cost makes people want to get their money's worth by riding. But at free, they might continue to drive and keep the train just for days when the car is in the shop. People are weird like that.

dathinab 4y ago

It's not really that bad. Practically for most areas in Germany it can be available from May the 1st as an in-app only ticket. That is what matters. --- PS: No idea why anyone is discussion chip card, it's not an option. Every public transport system in Germany (should) have the capability to scan QR codes from APP or paper. Partially due to DB RE/RB/IC/ICE trickets having "include local transportation at start/destination" options. (And I think roughly that system was also used for the 9€ ticket.). Chip cards on the other hand can not be read by many public transportation systems and even if it would be a mess due to how such systems work, i.e. chip card systems (as used by public transportation) are generally not build to be accessed across disjoint independent systems and are much less flexible. They have their benefits, but non of the benefits matter for a person bound monthly fix price ticket in the context of how public transportation works in Germany. So integrating chip cards would be just a grate wast of resources IMHO.

abliefern 4y ago
What do you mean it's not an option? I already ordered the ticket as a chip card here in Berlin.
- dathinab 4y ago
  I did that now, too .... I seem to have had very wrong information.
anticensor 4y ago
Contactless paper tickets exist (MiFare Ultralight and others). Those cold be utilised to generate a non-refillable start/destination ticket.