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The amount of shit takes on that thread are astonishing from people wanting to paint Hector's comments in a bad light. Trying to twist his words to extrapolate

The amount of shit takes on that thread are astonishing from people wanting to paint Hector's comments in a bad light. Trying to twist his words to extrapolate a meaning that isn't there. Of course, there are tons of people who also have no clue how hardware support comes into being. Some hardware is buggy on linux, has been and may always will be. A lot of the reason is, either the drivers had to be reverse engineer, which takes a lot of time and effort. Or, something that happens a lot, vendors throw together shitty drivers and call it a day. No hate for the SEs at these companies though. Some of these companies invest all their money in the development of hardware and clench up the purse strings once it comes time to write the actual drivers. Then from here, either the driver is open source and no one gives a damn to go fix the driver, or your back at needing to do some reverse engineering.

subarctic 4y ago
>The amount of shit takes on that thread are astonishing from people wanting to paint Hector's comments in a bad light. Trying to twist his words to extrapolate a meaning that isn't there. [...] um isn't there only one comment that matches what you're describing? i actually thought it was pretty neat how that discussion started out in the vein of a twitter thread, with one person misinterpreting another person's tweet and moralizing about it, but then you have that super long comment from alyssa 6 hours later that says "i think you're both right" and goes way into depth about how things are the way they are on twitter there wouldn't have been the space for that comment and it would've been overrun by a bunch of people making quick moral judgements about a tweet they deliberately misinterpreted
- kstenerud 4y ago
  This is actually my first time reading a mastodon thread, and I must say that the extra long comments allow for thoughtfulness, insightfulness and pleasant reading. At first I didn't read any of the replies because I was expecting the standard Twitter experience.
  - tcmart14 4y ago
    Definitely about Mastodon. I've been wanting to try out Mastodon and I finally took the plunge. So far, it seems a lot better because it allows for thoughtfulness. Will have to see how it goes!
Gigachad 4y ago
[flagged]
- Swinx43 4y ago
  I have no idea where you have been hanging out on mastodon. My experience has been the polar opposite of yours. I have had more thoughtful conversations and interactions on mastodon in two months than what I had in many multiple years on other platforms.
NavinF 4y ago
I'm not surprised. Any time you talk about how terrible the Linux desktop experience is, you'll get people saying shit like "Why do you need that feature? Linux works just fine on my machine". Marcan really pissed off that crowd when he acknowledged the feature disparity between Linux and the preinstalled OS on prebuilts: "I just realized that one of the things that bugs me is people equating stereotypical Linux problems on Asahi with other platforms, because it's not the same, because we actually care. Suspend not working, audio not working, display tearing issues, power management being bad... all those things are Linux on $random_platform support memes. And they're memes because they never get fixed, because nobody cares."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pas 4y ago
  It's a simple logical fallacy. Yes, the memes are true, but the explanation is false. Many many many people care. It's evident if one looks at endless bug reports, mailing list discussions. Many users and maintainers care. But even though they do, the bugs are not trivial. Many strange bugs are a consequence of subpar software architecture. One example that comes in mind is a bug about the xfce(?) lockscreen and laptop lid closing, that only activates when the lid opens. So for a time the desktop is visible. (There's also one bug where the password input field is invisible in some cases, etc.) It seems security and UX critical functionality is broken. But the truth of the matter is that it's also broken on many Windows setups too, just in other ways. Eg. complete freeze on restore. Or look at the GitHub issues for WSL, there are a lot of strange bugs, like DNS stops working and only reboot solves it. And those Microsoft engineers care even less than some open source maintainers. (For example the TypeScript maintainers are very responsive, even though that repo also has a lot of bug reports.)
  - pooper 4y ago
    It isn't always even bugs. There are features I'd GNU+Linux to get rid of most notably the two clipboards. Screw that noise. We only need one clipboard. However, what we get is more code to keep the clipboards in sync. https://codeyarns.com/tech/2017-01-18-the-two-clipboards-in-linux.html https://codeyarns.com/tech/2017-01-18-the-two-clipboards-in-...
izacus 4y ago
Oh come on, Hector constantly comes off as condescending and insulting to people that don't immediately bow down to his opinion and his immediate viewpoint. It's not like he's a saint, his Mastodon (and previously Twitter) feed is full of drama where he belittles other people and also takes things out of context. He's like that guy in the team you have that's very smart but also thinks everyone else is an incompetent monkey and constantly puts them down over it. This linked post is pretty clear example of that - after decades of hundreds of people making sure that hundreds of configurations worked very well on Linux, he's now all smug because they're working on a single Apple configuration. The social interactions he ends up having are of his own making as well.
- NavinF 4y ago
  I agree Marcan instigates a lot of twitter drama, but "hundreds of configurations worked very well on Linux" is kind of a stretch unless you're counting headless servers and really low end machines. There's a reason why Linux desktop has 1% market share (mostly chromebooks) and it's not because of Microsoft. I appreciate the work those devs did, but they really didn't move the needle. Neither has Marcan, but hey at least he is acting like a product guy and prioritizing features that are deal breakers on pretty much every other Linux system.
  - izacus 4y ago
    He's building out same features that already work on many other devices. Yes, there are hundreds of laptop models with fully working hardware (including sleep, bluetooth, speakers, power saving and whatnot), so there have already been plenty of developers that were "product" guys. And that's all even if we ignore Android and ChromeOS devices exist. It doesn't make Hectors contribution any less important for all of the Apple fans, but putting down other Linux developers like this is disgusting.
    - seba_dos1 4y ago
      Exactly. These days there are several vendors preinstalling GNU/Linux on their machines where everything works, and it's really not hard to find machines where it's not preinstalled but where everything works anyway. These memes are memes because it's also not hard to stumble upon a machine where it doesn't if you just take a random one, but that's hardly surprising - just take a look at how much effort it takes to run Windows on Steam Deck and have everything work well there. Someone needs to put that effort first when the vendor does not. I love those "I had issues so everyone else must have had them too" takes. I can give some anecdata too: the last integration issue I had on machines I've been running GNU/Linux on was a non-working SoundBlaster Audigy card somewhere around 2006 - and I've been mostly using laptops afterwards, some of them being from vendors that didn't provide any GNU/Linux support at all. (that sound card eventually gained support in ALSA, by the way)
oliwarner 4y ago
No twisting required. > we actually care … they never get fixed, because nobody cares He's pretty explicit. He thinks he and his care more than other distributions. I'm sure his observations have nothing to do with only supporting two related SoCs vs thousands of disparate chipsets, and the ability to repro from there. It's a terrible comment.
- iforgotpassword 4y ago
  No. Nobody cares if my cheap white label Walmart laptop crashes on standby. I can open an issue on every distro on existence, nothing will happen, no kernel dev will suddenly go out, buy that same laptop, and fix standby.
  - oliwarner 4y ago
    You've mudged care and ability to action. Plenty of hardware gets attention for exactly the same reason M1/M2 do. It's nothing to do with care, everything to do with access.

subarctic 4y ago

>The amount of shit takes on that thread are astonishing from people wanting to paint Hector's comments in a bad light. Trying to twist his words to extrapolate a meaning that isn't there. [...] um isn't there only one comment that matches what you're describing? i actually thought it was pretty neat how that discussion started out in the vein of a twitter thread, with one person misinterpreting another person's tweet and moralizing about it, but then you have that super long comment from alyssa 6 hours later that says "i think you're both right" and goes way into depth about how things are the way they are on twitter there wouldn't have been the space for that comment and it would've been overrun by a bunch of people making quick moral judgements about a tweet they deliberately misinterpreted

kstenerud 4y ago
This is actually my first time reading a mastodon thread, and I must say that the extra long comments allow for thoughtfulness, insightfulness and pleasant reading. At first I didn't read any of the replies because I was expecting the standard Twitter experience.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  Definitely about Mastodon. I've been wanting to try out Mastodon and I finally took the plunge. So far, it seems a lot better because it allows for thoughtfulness. Will have to see how it goes!

Gigachad 4y ago

[flagged]

Swinx43 4y ago
I have no idea where you have been hanging out on mastodon. My experience has been the polar opposite of yours. I have had more thoughtful conversations and interactions on mastodon in two months than what I had in many multiple years on other platforms.

NavinF 4y ago

I'm not surprised. Any time you talk about how terrible the Linux desktop experience is, you'll get people saying shit like "Why do you need that feature? Linux works just fine on my machine". Marcan really pissed off that crowd when he acknowledged the feature disparity between Linux and the preinstalled OS on prebuilts: "I just realized that one of the things that bugs me is people equating stereotypical Linux problems on Asahi with other platforms, because it's not the same, because we actually care. Suspend not working, audio not working, display tearing issues, power management being bad... all those things are Linux on $random_platform support memes. And they're memes because they never get fixed, because nobody cares."

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pas 4y ago
It's a simple logical fallacy. Yes, the memes are true, but the explanation is false. Many many many people care. It's evident if one looks at endless bug reports, mailing list discussions. Many users and maintainers care. But even though they do, the bugs are not trivial. Many strange bugs are a consequence of subpar software architecture. One example that comes in mind is a bug about the xfce(?) lockscreen and laptop lid closing, that only activates when the lid opens. So for a time the desktop is visible. (There's also one bug where the password input field is invisible in some cases, etc.) It seems security and UX critical functionality is broken. But the truth of the matter is that it's also broken on many Windows setups too, just in other ways. Eg. complete freeze on restore. Or look at the GitHub issues for WSL, there are a lot of strange bugs, like DNS stops working and only reboot solves it. And those Microsoft engineers care even less than some open source maintainers. (For example the TypeScript maintainers are very responsive, even though that repo also has a lot of bug reports.)
- pooper 4y ago
  It isn't always even bugs. There are features I'd GNU+Linux to get rid of most notably the two clipboards. Screw that noise. We only need one clipboard. However, what we get is more code to keep the clipboards in sync. https://codeyarns.com/tech/2017-01-18-the-two-clipboards-in-linux.html https://codeyarns.com/tech/2017-01-18-the-two-clipboards-in-...

izacus 4y ago

Oh come on, Hector constantly comes off as condescending and insulting to people that don't immediately bow down to his opinion and his immediate viewpoint. It's not like he's a saint, his Mastodon (and previously Twitter) feed is full of drama where he belittles other people and also takes things out of context. He's like that guy in the team you have that's very smart but also thinks everyone else is an incompetent monkey and constantly puts them down over it. This linked post is pretty clear example of that - after decades of hundreds of people making sure that hundreds of configurations worked very well on Linux, he's now all smug because they're working on a single Apple configuration. The social interactions he ends up having are of his own making as well.

NavinF 4y ago
I agree Marcan instigates a lot of twitter drama, but "hundreds of configurations worked very well on Linux" is kind of a stretch unless you're counting headless servers and really low end machines. There's a reason why Linux desktop has 1% market share (mostly chromebooks) and it's not because of Microsoft. I appreciate the work those devs did, but they really didn't move the needle. Neither has Marcan, but hey at least he is acting like a product guy and prioritizing features that are deal breakers on pretty much every other Linux system.
- izacus 4y ago
  He's building out same features that already work on many other devices. Yes, there are hundreds of laptop models with fully working hardware (including sleep, bluetooth, speakers, power saving and whatnot), so there have already been plenty of developers that were "product" guys. And that's all even if we ignore Android and ChromeOS devices exist. It doesn't make Hectors contribution any less important for all of the Apple fans, but putting down other Linux developers like this is disgusting.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    Exactly. These days there are several vendors preinstalling GNU/Linux on their machines where everything works, and it's really not hard to find machines where it's not preinstalled but where everything works anyway. These memes are memes because it's also not hard to stumble upon a machine where it doesn't if you just take a random one, but that's hardly surprising - just take a look at how much effort it takes to run Windows on Steam Deck and have everything work well there. Someone needs to put that effort first when the vendor does not. I love those "I had issues so everyone else must have had them too" takes. I can give some anecdata too: the last integration issue I had on machines I've been running GNU/Linux on was a non-working SoundBlaster Audigy card somewhere around 2006 - and I've been mostly using laptops afterwards, some of them being from vendors that didn't provide any GNU/Linux support at all. (that sound card eventually gained support in ALSA, by the way)

oliwarner 4y ago

No twisting required. > we actually care … they never get fixed, because nobody cares He's pretty explicit. He thinks he and his care more than other distributions. I'm sure his observations have nothing to do with only supporting two related SoCs vs thousands of disparate chipsets, and the ability to repro from there. It's a terrible comment.

iforgotpassword 4y ago
No. Nobody cares if my cheap white label Walmart laptop crashes on standby. I can open an issue on every distro on existence, nothing will happen, no kernel dev will suddenly go out, buy that same laptop, and fix standby.
- oliwarner 4y ago
  You've mudged care and ability to action. Plenty of hardware gets attention for exactly the same reason M1/M2 do. It's nothing to do with care, everything to do with access.