3 ms·

> Despite literally zero evidence of that actually being a problem in practice? Sustained contact with metal at a temperature as low as 45C is sufficient to ca

by mjg59 4y ago

> Despite literally zero evidence of that actually being a problem in practice? Sustained contact with metal at a temperature as low as 45C is sufficient to cause discomfort, and it's a surprisingly small rise above that before you can actually cause burns (https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=31f3cd71a5e5dc229156fe52457af2bfb59f69d0 https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&d...). Skin temperature is a standard input to DPTF policies, and during my testing I was certainly able to get the skin temperature of my test laptop well above that level - DPTF would trigger throttling instead. > why else would you jump in to an article about unlocking manufacturer-crippled products with FUD like "not the correct approach"? DPTF defaults to a "safe" configuration, where "safe" is a euphemism for "almost unusably slow". If what you care about is your laptop not being almost unusably slow, it's reasonable to choose an approach that obtains that without introducing any additional thermal concerns. If what you care about is obtaining the absolute maximum performance possible from your hardware with no regard to any safety or longevity concerns, then yes, implementing the DPTF policy is probably not what you want to do. But recommending the latter without providing any information about the tradeoffs is irresponsible.

userbinator 4y ago
[flagged]
- mjg59 4y ago
  While developing my DPTF implementation for Linux I caused the outer skin of my test laptop to reach a temperature that would have caused burns to my legs if I had left it sitting on them for more than a couple of minutes. Now, I have working thermoreception, so I'd probably have noticed this and put it somewhere that wasn't my legs before that happened, but there are various scenarios in which people don't and manufacturers of objects that are intended to be put in your lap are kind of reluctant to design them in such a way that they could cause injury, which is why the manufacturer policies ensure that doesn't happen. If you're fully aware of the possible consequences of ignoring those policies then go wild. I think it's the wrong choice for most people, and as I said I think it's irresponsible to suggest people change the thermal policy in that way without ensuring they're aware of the possible consequences. If saying "You should only do this if you're ok with your laptop potentially becoming hot enough to burn human skin" is authoritarian then I guess I'm authoritarian?
  - ladyanita22 4y ago
    Your work on reverse engineering DPTF seems abandoned. Is it that everything was upstreamed? Because there's still a performance gap between Windows and Linux. Also, why is Intel so reluctant on fixing this themselves? It looks so simple to me too fix this by releasing the docs and fixing thermald, and still, here we are having to use throttled for those wanting a little bit more punch. And finally, how is it that nobody it's creating a custom, patched thermald that takes all this into account? Is it that the process for reverse engineering is too complicated and that we don't have the full picture yet? It shouldn't be too difficult to read the values Windows takes and reverse engineer it, although it may be tougher than it seems at first.
    - mjg59 4y ago
      I worked on it to the extent that it worked for my use case, given it was a spare time project. It's all been merged upstream, and Intel (to their credit) are maintaining it now even though still refusing to document it.
      - ladyanita22 4y ago
        I don't understand why Intel is so reluctant to do the things right
- ShroudedNight 4y ago
  > And assuming that humans won't have a natural "this is hot, better not touch it" response is absurd. FWIW, the incidence of people burning themselves on hot pads / body warmers would strongly suggest otherwise: https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwork.com/site/wounds/reviews/burns-sustained-body-heating-devices-integrative-review https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwork.com/site/wounds/reviews...
Dalewyn 4y ago
For a layman's overview of this, Linus from LinusTechTips gives a basic rundown of the relevant safety regulation and some numbers in one of his videos featuring the M1 Macbook Air and its cooling solution.[1] [1]: https://youtu.be/ghDvyItIHTY?t=319 https://youtu.be/ghDvyItIHTY?t=319

by mjg59 4y ago

userbinator 4y ago

[flagged]

mjg59 4y ago
While developing my DPTF implementation for Linux I caused the outer skin of my test laptop to reach a temperature that would have caused burns to my legs if I had left it sitting on them for more than a couple of minutes. Now, I have working thermoreception, so I'd probably have noticed this and put it somewhere that wasn't my legs before that happened, but there are various scenarios in which people don't and manufacturers of objects that are intended to be put in your lap are kind of reluctant to design them in such a way that they could cause injury, which is why the manufacturer policies ensure that doesn't happen. If you're fully aware of the possible consequences of ignoring those policies then go wild. I think it's the wrong choice for most people, and as I said I think it's irresponsible to suggest people change the thermal policy in that way without ensuring they're aware of the possible consequences. If saying "You should only do this if you're ok with your laptop potentially becoming hot enough to burn human skin" is authoritarian then I guess I'm authoritarian?
- ladyanita22 4y ago
  Your work on reverse engineering DPTF seems abandoned. Is it that everything was upstreamed? Because there's still a performance gap between Windows and Linux. Also, why is Intel so reluctant on fixing this themselves? It looks so simple to me too fix this by releasing the docs and fixing thermald, and still, here we are having to use throttled for those wanting a little bit more punch. And finally, how is it that nobody it's creating a custom, patched thermald that takes all this into account? Is it that the process for reverse engineering is too complicated and that we don't have the full picture yet? It shouldn't be too difficult to read the values Windows takes and reverse engineer it, although it may be tougher than it seems at first.
  - mjg59 4y ago
    I worked on it to the extent that it worked for my use case, given it was a spare time project. It's all been merged upstream, and Intel (to their credit) are maintaining it now even though still refusing to document it.
    - ladyanita22 4y ago
      I don't understand why Intel is so reluctant to do the things right
ShroudedNight 4y ago
> And assuming that humans won't have a natural "this is hot, better not touch it" response is absurd. FWIW, the incidence of people burning themselves on hot pads / body warmers would strongly suggest otherwise: https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwork.com/site/wounds/reviews/burns-sustained-body-heating-devices-integrative-review https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwork.com/site/wounds/reviews...

Dalewyn 4y ago

For a layman's overview of this, Linus from LinusTechTips gives a basic rundown of the relevant safety regulation and some numbers in one of his videos featuring the M1 Macbook Air and its cooling solution.[1] [1]: https://youtu.be/ghDvyItIHTY?t=319 https://youtu.be/ghDvyItIHTY?t=319