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> I'd disagree with the first point there, they were very late to pivot. Relax the US took 10 years to apologize to the Japanese people they threw into internm

> I'd disagree with the first point there, they were very late to pivot. Relax the US took 10 years to apologize to the Japanese people they threw into internment camps. That was a bigger fuck up than the china covid lock downs. >The rest seems internally inconsistent with where you were initially. I think it's because you might have stretched the kernel of wisdom, "authoritarianism may have some benefit in the kind of disaster which is only mitigated by authoritarianism" a bit further than it goes on its own merits. Internally inconsistent? No it's not. And you didn't point out where too. Just a vague, "seems inconsistent". It's also not really a stretch. Part of the speed and efficiency in China's response comes from central control. Part of Americas dying infrastructure comes from lack of centralized control, too many Nimbys, different motives and conflicting opinions. >They screwed up by doubling down. Your main point would actually be a lot easier to defend if you separated it from the overextended Chinese implementation. Yeah they screwed up. But my point still stands. Also it's not the biggest fuck up. Not by a long shot. Take a look at the US blowing up the nordstream pipelines. Holy shit a literal act of war/terrorism on an allied country. The US is no stranger to dark shit and huge fuck ups on a scale equivalent if not worse than china.

refurb 4y ago
Relax the US took 10 years to apologize to the Japanese people they threw into internment camps. That was a bigger fuck up than the china covid lock downs. I wouldn't count on China ever admitting they messed up. That's just not how it's done there. Hands will be waved, stories will be spun and they'll talk like it was a perfect strategy. "Saving face" is very real in Asian cultures. If you can avoid ever admitting a mistake or fault, you do it. I saw it a lot while living there.
- kilgnad 4y ago
  I 100% agree with this. I'm Chinese (racially) so I know. That being said, it doesn't mean other "cultures" don't have the concept of "saving face". It's an inborn thing. Genetic. I haven't met anyone asian or not who admits their mistakes with ease. Think about it, 10 years of not apologizing is not that far off from never admitting a mistake. I will agree with you that from my own experience that this does effect the Chinese more than other people in general. But my argument here is simply that the Chinese had a superior response to other democratic countries when handling covid. The response ended up being from certain perspectives, mistaken, and the slow reversal of the response while, wrong, is something that governments (including rival governments) also do similarly. That's it.
  - refurb 4y ago
    It took me a while to wrap my head around it, but saving face is more than just "not admitting mistakes". It's the view that your social status and honor is based on not being wrong or admitting mistakes. A good example of the differences are apologies by Western governments for past wrongs. Doing so can actually increase social standing among the population. Admitting guilt and wrongdoing can be seen as a redeeming quality. But I do agree that not admitting fault is a pretty universal human thing. I think "saving face" has more to do with the social pressures around it.
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      >A good example of the differences are apologies by Western governments for past wrongs. Do they apologize for their own past doings or does one US faction throw another faction under the bus through a half-hearted apology? It seems most of the US population considers an apology worthless at this point, atleast if it's not attached to financial compensation which is the case for the majority of mistakes or crimes. They are just considered political lip service.
    - kilgnad 4y ago
      >It took me a while to wrap my head around it, I'm chinese. I understand what you're talking about it, More than you. But you are taking it too far. The concept is exactly the same as the the universal thing about not admitting fault. It is exactly the same. The main difference is the concept has been crystallized into the language and is more prevalent. It is not anything more than that. It's likely someone who was natively born in China is trying to explain the concept to you without fully understanding western culture. He likely thinks western culture is some sort of pristine culture with no concept at all of "not wanting to admit fault" and was trying to explain it to you thinking that the concept was completely absent from your background. No, this is wrong. I'm a creature of both worlds. Deep insight into western culture by virtue of being born in the states and deep insight into east asian culture by virtue of being born of the chinese race, having family who is chinese and also having friends who are all chinese. The duality of my origins make my insight more calibrated in this regard.
mola 4y ago
European countries did much better than china regarding covid. US did protlly because of many internal issues which seem to be unadressable. Oh, and Nord stream 2 was not the US. At least there's no credible proof or semblance of one.
- kilgnad 4y ago
  >Oh, and Nord stream 2 was not the US. At least there's no credible proof or semblance of one. You have to be really lying to yourself to believe that. Look at the twinkle in bidens eye when he says it: https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=82 https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=82 This coupled with: https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the... It's unmistakable. The US did it and everybody in Germany and Europe knows it. The US was meanwhile over-concerned with their first major F-35 kill ever: Balloon gate. > European countries did much better than china regarding covid. US did protlly because of many internal issues which seem to be unadressable. The US did poorly because of lack of centralized control and abundance of karens and the male counterpart. China had the superior response in terms of infrastructure adaption.

refurb 4y ago

Relax the US took 10 years to apologize to the Japanese people they threw into internment camps. That was a bigger fuck up than the china covid lock downs. I wouldn't count on China ever admitting they messed up. That's just not how it's done there. Hands will be waved, stories will be spun and they'll talk like it was a perfect strategy. "Saving face" is very real in Asian cultures. If you can avoid ever admitting a mistake or fault, you do it. I saw it a lot while living there.

kilgnad 4y ago
I 100% agree with this. I'm Chinese (racially) so I know. That being said, it doesn't mean other "cultures" don't have the concept of "saving face". It's an inborn thing. Genetic. I haven't met anyone asian or not who admits their mistakes with ease. Think about it, 10 years of not apologizing is not that far off from never admitting a mistake. I will agree with you that from my own experience that this does effect the Chinese more than other people in general. But my argument here is simply that the Chinese had a superior response to other democratic countries when handling covid. The response ended up being from certain perspectives, mistaken, and the slow reversal of the response while, wrong, is something that governments (including rival governments) also do similarly. That's it.
- refurb 4y ago
  It took me a while to wrap my head around it, but saving face is more than just "not admitting mistakes". It's the view that your social status and honor is based on not being wrong or admitting mistakes. A good example of the differences are apologies by Western governments for past wrongs. Doing so can actually increase social standing among the population. Admitting guilt and wrongdoing can be seen as a redeeming quality. But I do agree that not admitting fault is a pretty universal human thing. I think "saving face" has more to do with the social pressures around it.
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    >A good example of the differences are apologies by Western governments for past wrongs. Do they apologize for their own past doings or does one US faction throw another faction under the bus through a half-hearted apology? It seems most of the US population considers an apology worthless at this point, atleast if it's not attached to financial compensation which is the case for the majority of mistakes or crimes. They are just considered political lip service.
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    >It took me a while to wrap my head around it, I'm chinese. I understand what you're talking about it, More than you. But you are taking it too far. The concept is exactly the same as the the universal thing about not admitting fault. It is exactly the same. The main difference is the concept has been crystallized into the language and is more prevalent. It is not anything more than that. It's likely someone who was natively born in China is trying to explain the concept to you without fully understanding western culture. He likely thinks western culture is some sort of pristine culture with no concept at all of "not wanting to admit fault" and was trying to explain it to you thinking that the concept was completely absent from your background. No, this is wrong. I'm a creature of both worlds. Deep insight into western culture by virtue of being born in the states and deep insight into east asian culture by virtue of being born of the chinese race, having family who is chinese and also having friends who are all chinese. The duality of my origins make my insight more calibrated in this regard.

mola 4y ago

European countries did much better than china regarding covid. US did protlly because of many internal issues which seem to be unadressable. Oh, and Nord stream 2 was not the US. At least there's no credible proof or semblance of one.

kilgnad 4y ago
>Oh, and Nord stream 2 was not the US. At least there's no credible proof or semblance of one. You have to be really lying to yourself to believe that. Look at the twinkle in bidens eye when he says it: https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=82 https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=82 This coupled with: https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the... It's unmistakable. The US did it and everybody in Germany and Europe knows it. The US was meanwhile over-concerned with their first major F-35 kill ever: Balloon gate. > European countries did much better than china regarding covid. US did protlly because of many internal issues which seem to be unadressable. The US did poorly because of lack of centralized control and abundance of karens and the male counterpart. China had the superior response in terms of infrastructure adaption.