>But it requires that you understand the lowest number the guy can go without taking a hit. I don't give a damn if he takes a hit or not. His profitability is

>But it requires that you understand the lowest number the guy can go without taking a hit. I don't give a damn if he takes a hit or not. His profitability is his problem, not mine. Ideally, he takes a loss on the car he sells me because that sale pushes him over some target that actually works for him. Only he knows his position explicitly. I can never know this. Assuming I can is putting me in a loser's position. Generally, if a car salesman isn't pissed off at you following the sale, you are getting ripped off. I hate to tell you this, but it is true. If the car salesman is "happy" to sell to your dad, it's probably because he's an easy sell. That's not negotiation. The first case is only an example, but your $3800 offer is pretty close to my example where you offer $2000. The error you're making is that $4500 is some sort of set in stone value. It isn't. The car might in fact be worth more than $10K to you, and less than $1K to the dealership. The art of negotiation is the act of getting the car for the lowest possible price, regardless of its worth to you or the seller.