4 ms·

To be fair, shouldn't the first scenario be offering $70k as well? Otherwise it's biased towards the premise that you should say a number second. In that case,

To be fair, shouldn't the first scenario be offering $70k as well? Otherwise it's biased towards the premise that you should say a number second. In that case, let's say you want $125k, and the company offers $70k before you say how much you want. Well, you're still in a difficult situation to get to $125k. Ask for $180k? That wouldn't fly. (I'd also say that if a company offers $70k for a position that should be around $125k, they're clearly indicating that they're trying to screw you over. So probably not worth pursuing) That being said, I feel that not giving the first number would be beneficial to me because I might then be offered more than what I would have said. (I think I've been mostly underpaid, so my perception of a fair salary is likely screwed up towards the bottom)

mechanical_fish 15y ago
I'm sorry, it probably would make a better argument if I hadn't used the $70k example. It would have been more believable and everyone knows that coders love symmetry. Except I just couldn't resist, because... truth is stranger than fiction, and I really have been offered 40% less than my desired salary. (Remember, to a nonprogrammer, programmers look like clerks. When you tell them how much you expect to earn, and they flinch, they may not even be play-acting: Why, for that kind of money they could have hired three clerks! People will generally not hesitate to offer you the median salary for white-collar workers of your age range, either because they're actually clueless or as an opening feint in negotiations; you need to be prepared for that.) Anyway, now that I've led us here, your scenario: You think you can earn $130k. A company opens with an offer of $70k. Do you really counter with $180k? Well, maybe you do! If you're negotiating with an experienced software engineer at a mainstream software company, you could certainly try it. The message you'd be sending is I recognize that you have just thrown me an embarrassing lowball, and I know you know how low that ball was, but I'm going to take it in good faith by assuming it was an obvious joke, and play along by lobbing an obvious highball right back at you. You should probably open with a hearty laugh, though, and make your counteroffer with a sly smile and maybe even a wink. But I, being excessively polite and fairly bad at broad back-slapping humor and pretty much a coward, would probably not do that. Instead I'd play it safe and assume that my counterparty is a babe in the woods - if they've just lowballed you by 45% they're certainly signaling that - and move them up more gently. I'd flinch (Dawson: "always flinch at the first proposal. Practice flinching. A wince, a cough, a pregnant pause, a slight chuckle, but flinch") and say something like "you know, the average starting salary for a Google programmer is far higher than that." Then talk about that for a while. [EDIT: In my first draft of this I named a number at this point. A number which was lower than my target. A rookie mistake! I really am bad at this. Perhaps it would be better to try and coach them closer to your target number before naming any number of your own.] But it will be hard to salvage a negotiation that starts so low. Give up and take it as a sign: You'll need to start marketing yourself to a higher class of employer, because you've made a mistake. Either you're ridiculously overestimating your earning potential or you're targeting the wrong market with the wrong message. See: patio11's other essay.

mechanical_fish 15y ago

I'm sorry, it probably would make a better argument if I hadn't used the $70k example. It would have been more believable and everyone knows that coders love symmetry. Except I just couldn't resist, because... truth is stranger than fiction, and I really have been offered 40% less than my desired salary. (Remember, to a nonprogrammer, programmers look like clerks. When you tell them how much you expect to earn, and they flinch, they may not even be play-acting: Why, for that kind of money they could have hired three clerks! People will generally not hesitate to offer you the median salary for white-collar workers of your age range, either because they're actually clueless or as an opening feint in negotiations; you need to be prepared for that.) Anyway, now that I've led us here, your scenario: You think you can earn $130k. A company opens with an offer of $70k. Do you really counter with $180k? Well, maybe you do! If you're negotiating with an experienced software engineer at a mainstream software company, you could certainly try it. The message you'd be sending is I recognize that you have just thrown me an embarrassing lowball, and I know you know how low that ball was, but I'm going to take it in good faith by assuming it was an obvious joke, and play along by lobbing an obvious highball right back at you. You should probably open with a hearty laugh, though, and make your counteroffer with a sly smile and maybe even a wink. But I, being excessively polite and fairly bad at broad back-slapping humor and pretty much a coward, would probably not do that. Instead I'd play it safe and assume that my counterparty is a babe in the woods - if they've just lowballed you by 45% they're certainly signaling that - and move them up more gently. I'd flinch (Dawson: "always flinch at the first proposal. Practice flinching. A wince, a cough, a pregnant pause, a slight chuckle, but flinch") and say something like "you know, the average starting salary for a Google programmer is far higher than that." Then talk about that for a while. [EDIT: In my first draft of this I named a number at this point. A number which was lower than my target. A rookie mistake! I really am bad at this. Perhaps it would be better to try and coach them closer to your target number before naming any number of your own.] But it will be hard to salvage a negotiation that starts so low. Give up and take it as a sign: You'll need to start marketing yourself to a higher class of employer, because you've made a mistake. Either you're ridiculously overestimating your earning potential or you're targeting the wrong market with the wrong message. See: patio11's other essay.