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> There is nothing to refute. Well no, it's a fact that we were behind the coup. The question is why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a

by yucky 4y ago

> There is nothing to refute. Well no, it's a fact that we were behind the coup. The question is why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a problem with that? It's also a fact that Kiev cutoff the water supply to Crimea. The question is, why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a problem with that? So knowing this, how can you say the response from Russia was "totally unprovoked" when we did everything we could to provoke it? Also, the only difference between Kosovo being recognized by more countries is because the US wants it that way, and we get our way in the UN with most countries. But Kosovo doesn't deserve independence any more than the people of the Donbas, do they?

mopsi 4y ago
> Well no, it's a fact that we were behind the coup. There was no coup and no-one recognizes it as such. > It's also a fact that Kiev cutoff the water supply to Crimea. The question is, why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a problem with that? Don't invade other countries and you won't have to deal with such issues. > the only difference between Kosovo being recognized by more countries is because the US wants it that way The US is not all-powerful and has a long history of initiatives that have failed to gain traction despite best efforts to build support. But never before has Russia been in such international isolation. No-one besides Syria and North Korea find their narrative convincing. Why no-one supports Russia, not even countries that are usually sympathetic?
- yucky 4y ago
  > There was no coup and no-one recognizes it as such. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-made/ https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-m... https://archive.is/ysr3B https://archive.is/ysr3B https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in-the-rapidly-worsening-ukraine-fiasco-the-us-is-reaping-exactly-what-it-sowed/ https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in-the-rapidly-worsening-uk... https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/01/azov-f01.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/01/azov-f01.html https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia... https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-benjamin-davies-220201/ https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-b... ..and on and on. Also, we have a long history of these shenanigans in Ukraine going back decades, see - https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/11/covert-operation-ukrainian-independence-haunts-cia-00029968 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/11/covert-ope... > Don't invade other countries and you won't have to deal with such issues. Crimeans voted to be annexed to Russia. Are we not supporting their right to self-determination? Let me guess, this is different? Also, when you talk about not invading other countries do you not realize the irony of that when we have invaded more countries in the last 50 years than the rest of the world combined?
  - mopsi 4y ago
    > we I am not "we the US". I was born in the USSR and I live in Eastern Europe. > ..and on and on. You can write anything you want on a website. Mafia shot Kennedy. Moon landing was faked. Covid doesn't exist. It doesn't make it true. Nor is salon.com authoritative source for assessing legitimacy of a government. I've set the benchmark to how many UN members endorse the view, and Russia has unprecedented lack of support for their current narrative, be it the illegitimacy of Ukraine's government, independence of LNR and DNR, or the Crimean referendum. > Crimeans voted to be annexed to Russia. Are we not supporting their right to self-determination? Let me guess, this is different? Again, virtually no-one recognizes it. The majority of United Nations, 100 countries, voted for a resolution calling this a mock referendum. Only 11 countries opposed: Russia, Syria, North Korea and a few other failed states. The only argument you could possibly come up with is that for a decade, the US has somehow managed to force the whole world against Russia, from tiny Pacific island nations to India and China (including even Taliban!), but that's an obvious nonsense. No-one wields such power. Could it be that Russia is... just wrong? Violating every norm of international relations to a degree that it has lost all support it ever had among other countries?
    - yucky 4y ago
      > I've set the benchmark to how many UN members endorse the view You could have just said you blindly support the US position regardless of facts, and saved us both some time.
      - mopsi 4y ago
        If you think that the US controls foreign policy of almost all 193 members of the United Nations, including some if its greatest rivals like China, then this is just another view not supported by reality.
        yucky 4y ago
        US de facto controls foreign policy through the UN and other international orgs for a majority of countries on earth. China and Russia are the two largest exceptions. We use economic pressure like a bully. This is a fact that nobody would dispute. You can agree with the aims of the US without pretending that we don't force other nations to do our bidding all the time. Meanwhile, you never addressed the point that the US invades more nations than anybody else. Why are you ignoring that?

by yucky 4y ago

mopsi 4y ago

> Well no, it's a fact that we were behind the coup. There was no coup and no-one recognizes it as such. > It's also a fact that Kiev cutoff the water supply to Crimea. The question is, why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a problem with that? Don't invade other countries and you won't have to deal with such issues. > the only difference between Kosovo being recognized by more countries is because the US wants it that way The US is not all-powerful and has a long history of initiatives that have failed to gain traction despite best efforts to build support. But never before has Russia been in such international isolation. No-one besides Syria and North Korea find their narrative convincing. Why no-one supports Russia, not even countries that are usually sympathetic?

yucky 4y ago
> There was no coup and no-one recognizes it as such. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-made/ https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-m... https://archive.is/ysr3B https://archive.is/ysr3B https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in-the-rapidly-worsening-ukraine-fiasco-the-us-is-reaping-exactly-what-it-sowed/ https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in-the-rapidly-worsening-uk... https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/01/azov-f01.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/01/azov-f01.html https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia... https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-benjamin-davies-220201/ https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-b... ..and on and on. Also, we have a long history of these shenanigans in Ukraine going back decades, see - https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/11/covert-operation-ukrainian-independence-haunts-cia-00029968 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/11/covert-ope... > Don't invade other countries and you won't have to deal with such issues. Crimeans voted to be annexed to Russia. Are we not supporting their right to self-determination? Let me guess, this is different? Also, when you talk about not invading other countries do you not realize the irony of that when we have invaded more countries in the last 50 years than the rest of the world combined?
- mopsi 4y ago
  > we I am not "we the US". I was born in the USSR and I live in Eastern Europe. > ..and on and on. You can write anything you want on a website. Mafia shot Kennedy. Moon landing was faked. Covid doesn't exist. It doesn't make it true. Nor is salon.com authoritative source for assessing legitimacy of a government. I've set the benchmark to how many UN members endorse the view, and Russia has unprecedented lack of support for their current narrative, be it the illegitimacy of Ukraine's government, independence of LNR and DNR, or the Crimean referendum. > Crimeans voted to be annexed to Russia. Are we not supporting their right to self-determination? Let me guess, this is different? Again, virtually no-one recognizes it. The majority of United Nations, 100 countries, voted for a resolution calling this a mock referendum. Only 11 countries opposed: Russia, Syria, North Korea and a few other failed states. The only argument you could possibly come up with is that for a decade, the US has somehow managed to force the whole world against Russia, from tiny Pacific island nations to India and China (including even Taliban!), but that's an obvious nonsense. No-one wields such power. Could it be that Russia is... just wrong? Violating every norm of international relations to a degree that it has lost all support it ever had among other countries?
  - yucky 4y ago
    > I've set the benchmark to how many UN members endorse the view You could have just said you blindly support the US position regardless of facts, and saved us both some time.
    - mopsi 4y ago
      If you think that the US controls foreign policy of almost all 193 members of the United Nations, including some if its greatest rivals like China, then this is just another view not supported by reality.
      - yucky 4y ago
        US de facto controls foreign policy through the UN and other international orgs for a majority of countries on earth. China and Russia are the two largest exceptions. We use economic pressure like a bully. This is a fact that nobody would dispute. You can agree with the aims of the US without pretending that we don't force other nations to do our bidding all the time. Meanwhile, you never addressed the point that the US invades more nations than anybody else. Why are you ignoring that?