5 ms·

Burning random manufactured stuff makes dioxins. It would be astonishing if there weren't dioxins in the soil before the accident and some more after it. This

by jws 4y ago

Burning random manufactured stuff makes dioxins. It would be astonishing if there weren't dioxins in the soil before the accident and some more after it. This being the rural United States, burn barrels for household waste were a thing for most of a century and spewed dioxin and a lot of other stuff all over the place. You can find lots of studies for background levels of dioxin. It isn't a binary "Is there dioxin?" There certainly is. The question is, is it elevated above background? Is it elevated about established safe levels? If you run it through that nearby incinerator, will the dispersed plume raise land above acceptable levels? The EPA has experience with dioxin sites and incineration. They bought a town of 800 people, demolished everything, hauled all the surface dirt to a site-built incinerator and over the course of a year incinerated everything and built a mound out of it. The locals were vocally aggrieved that the incineration was done near them. Its now a nice park for bicycle riding on flat land by a river.

jeffbee 4y ago
You refer to Times Beach, I assume? Note that "over the course of a year" commenced eight years after the disaster.
- jws 4y ago
  Yes, for those unfamiliar, the city used to contract to have waste oil sprayed on the unpaved streets to keep the dust down. (Hush Children of Summer, it was the 1960s and 70s, it seemed like a good idea at the time.) In 1972 their contractor sprayed dioxin contaminated oil, possibly unbeknownst to him and the people who paid him to take the waste oil, but he wasn't being all that careful. Again its the 1970s, the EPA was two years old, the Crying Indian ad had just come out, trying to get people to carry a litter bag in their 8mpg car instead of chucking their beer cans and bottles out the window was the big thing. You wouldn't walk barefoot in a park because of all the pull tabs discarded on the ground. Dioxin is not known to cause problems in humans at this point, though animal studies suggest it could be a thing. No one has studied it. Meanwhile, 10 years pass, the EPA has connected the oil hauler to contamination problems in a number of sites. They take samples at Times Beach and the next day a 500 year flood covers the town. Dioxin is now listed as a human carcinogen, and the towns streets contain 50% of the dioxin contamination in the entire state. The EPA uses the newly passed federal Superfund to buy out all the residents. The town is sealed off from humans, but apparently that river can flood and carry things downstream. 10 more years pass… The EPA decides on incineration, build an incinerated, purify everything with fire. Problems solved. It's now 1997. 25 years from contamination to cleanup. Bonus Context for Diligent Readers: Low level dioxin exposure has since been concluded to not be a health hazard. No one in Times Beach showed signs of dioxin poisoning. The decision maker for destroying the town now says with current knowledge he would not have ordered that. There was actually no disaster.
wrycoder 4y ago
In this case, fire will release toxic hydrogen chloride and carbon monoxide and trace levels of phosgene, besides the usual carbon dioxide.[0] Large spills of vinyl chloride have been deliberately burned in the past, as the byproducts of burning are judged less hazardous than vinyl chloride itself. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_chloride#Fire_and_explosion_hazard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_chloride#Fire_and_explos...
- hyperpape 4y ago
  Since carbon monoxide is released by gas stoves and car exhaust, it's really worth specifying the quantity for that component. OSHA allows up to 50 ppm for long term occupational exposure.
- ikekkdcjkfke 4y ago
  How can one be sure everything is combusted and not just partially, spreading it all over the place
  - wrycoder 4y ago
    You can't be sure. But nor can you collect it and transport it for proper incineration. What's not burned will evaporate eventually, with deleterious effects.
anonymouskimmer 4y ago
https://www.clu-in.org/contaminantfocus/default2.focus/sec/Dioxins/cat/Treatment_Technologies/ https://www.clu-in.org/contaminantfocus/default2.focus/sec/D... > Incineration at temperatures above 1200°C is considered the most effective way of destroying dioxins. Though "Thermal desorption, which operates at lower temperature range to vaporize dioxins, is also commonly used." Which wouldn't be good in terms of distribution of the dioxins into the air and throughout the environment, unless they concentrate and destroy the liberated dioxins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_desorption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_desorption ). So regardless of the history of clean air violations, the important thing for dioxins in particular are the heat of this incinerator, whether that heat is evenly distributed throughout the burn mass, and whether the incineration is fully enclosed until it is finished.

by jws 4y ago

jeffbee 4y ago

You refer to Times Beach, I assume? Note that "over the course of a year" commenced eight years after the disaster.

jws 4y ago
Yes, for those unfamiliar, the city used to contract to have waste oil sprayed on the unpaved streets to keep the dust down. (Hush Children of Summer, it was the 1960s and 70s, it seemed like a good idea at the time.) In 1972 their contractor sprayed dioxin contaminated oil, possibly unbeknownst to him and the people who paid him to take the waste oil, but he wasn't being all that careful. Again its the 1970s, the EPA was two years old, the Crying Indian ad had just come out, trying to get people to carry a litter bag in their 8mpg car instead of chucking their beer cans and bottles out the window was the big thing. You wouldn't walk barefoot in a park because of all the pull tabs discarded on the ground. Dioxin is not known to cause problems in humans at this point, though animal studies suggest it could be a thing. No one has studied it. Meanwhile, 10 years pass, the EPA has connected the oil hauler to contamination problems in a number of sites. They take samples at Times Beach and the next day a 500 year flood covers the town. Dioxin is now listed as a human carcinogen, and the towns streets contain 50% of the dioxin contamination in the entire state. The EPA uses the newly passed federal Superfund to buy out all the residents. The town is sealed off from humans, but apparently that river can flood and carry things downstream. 10 more years pass… The EPA decides on incineration, build an incinerated, purify everything with fire. Problems solved. It's now 1997. 25 years from contamination to cleanup. Bonus Context for Diligent Readers: Low level dioxin exposure has since been concluded to not be a health hazard. No one in Times Beach showed signs of dioxin poisoning. The decision maker for destroying the town now says with current knowledge he would not have ordered that. There was actually no disaster.

wrycoder 4y ago

In this case, fire will release toxic hydrogen chloride and carbon monoxide and trace levels of phosgene, besides the usual carbon dioxide.[0] Large spills of vinyl chloride have been deliberately burned in the past, as the byproducts of burning are judged less hazardous than vinyl chloride itself. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_chloride#Fire_and_explosion_hazard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_chloride#Fire_and_explos...

hyperpape 4y ago
Since carbon monoxide is released by gas stoves and car exhaust, it's really worth specifying the quantity for that component. OSHA allows up to 50 ppm for long term occupational exposure.
ikekkdcjkfke 4y ago
How can one be sure everything is combusted and not just partially, spreading it all over the place
- wrycoder 4y ago
  You can't be sure. But nor can you collect it and transport it for proper incineration. What's not burned will evaporate eventually, with deleterious effects.

anonymouskimmer 4y ago

https://www.clu-in.org/contaminantfocus/default2.focus/sec/Dioxins/cat/Treatment_Technologies/ https://www.clu-in.org/contaminantfocus/default2.focus/sec/D... > Incineration at temperatures above 1200°C is considered the most effective way of destroying dioxins. Though "Thermal desorption, which operates at lower temperature range to vaporize dioxins, is also commonly used." Which wouldn't be good in terms of distribution of the dioxins into the air and throughout the environment, unless they concentrate and destroy the liberated dioxins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_desorption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_desorption ). So regardless of the history of clean air violations, the important thing for dioxins in particular are the heat of this incinerator, whether that heat is evenly distributed throughout the burn mass, and whether the incineration is fully enclosed until it is finished.