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Isn’t that incompatible by the very nature that we are aware of our daydreams? I.e., it can’t be subconscious if we’re aware of it. Perhaps you mean daydreaming

by bumby 4y ago

Isn’t that incompatible by the very nature that we are aware of our daydreams? I.e., it can’t be subconscious if we’re aware of it. Perhaps you mean daydreaming is when subconscious thoughts transition to conscious awareness? I think this is part of what the other commenter was alluding to with imprecise language.

Jensson 4y ago
> Isn’t that incompatible by the very nature that we are aware of our daydreams? I.e., it can’t be subconscious if we’re aware of it. Perhaps you mean daydreaming is when subconscious thoughts transition to conscious awareness? I don't see how that is different from you being aware of your dreams. Daydreams aren't controlled by you, there is another process you aren't aware of that is feeding you the daydream. Also usually when you daydream you stop being aware of your surroundings, like when walking etc, so some process has to take over that as well. I'm talking about those processes.
- bumby 4y ago
  That’s the point. I believe neuroscientists don’t consider all dreaming to be “subconscious”. By definition, if they were, you wouldn’t be aware of them and wouldn’t remember them. Lots of people dream (and it can be verified with brain scans) without remembering them.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    > I believe neuroscientists don’t consider all dreaming to be “subconscious”. Can you consciously start to dream whenever you want? Otherwise I'd say that they are invoked by a subconscious process. Also forgetting something doesn't mean that the memory was never there. Even people who remember their dream directly after the night usually quickly forgets about them afterwards, you don't remember most of your dreams from a week ago, so that is easily explained by just saying that they cleaned up the memory of their dream before they woke up.
    - bumby 4y ago
      I think you’re conflating concepts like free will and consciousness. I can be conscious of a sound without willing the experience into existence. You’d have to act some of the lucid dreaming folks about the limitations of consciously directing dreams.
      - Jensson 4y ago
        > You’d have to act some of the lucid dreaming folks about the limitations of consciously directing dreams I'm very good at that though, as I said it is just a process that is asking you questions, and just like you can steer a conversation with what you say you can steer where that process takes the dream by how you behave in it. It will continue asking you about the stuff until it is no longer curious about the situation, and when it is it will steer the dream (conversation) to some other subject, putting you in some completely different environment etc. I'm not sure why that interpretation is so hard to believe. And I think that process also does a lot of computation that doesn't need to ask the conscious parts about anything, in those cases you wouldn't dream, its just doing something else.
        af3d 4y ago
        Occasionally I too have this ability to "wake up" within a dream and thus exert at least some form of influence over it, such as an ability to fly around the dreamscape. I even came up with a system to reliably verify whether or not I was indeed in a dream state. It's very simple actually. The first thing I do is look around for something with writing on it. Having done that I then turn my head and then back. If the wording has changed, I am dreaming. If I don't do something like that, I fall back into the "subconscious dreaming state" much faster than I would have than otherwise.
        bumby 4y ago
        It’s not that the conjecture is hard to believe, it’s that it’s being muddled by sloppy language. If, as you say, you are aware of something, it is by definition now in your conscious mind. The idea that it originates somewhere else is not a new concept. Buddhists have been claiming “thoughts think themselves” for a long time.

by bumby 4y ago

Jensson 4y ago

> Isn’t that incompatible by the very nature that we are aware of our daydreams? I.e., it can’t be subconscious if we’re aware of it. Perhaps you mean daydreaming is when subconscious thoughts transition to conscious awareness? I don't see how that is different from you being aware of your dreams. Daydreams aren't controlled by you, there is another process you aren't aware of that is feeding you the daydream. Also usually when you daydream you stop being aware of your surroundings, like when walking etc, so some process has to take over that as well. I'm talking about those processes.

bumby 4y ago
That’s the point. I believe neuroscientists don’t consider all dreaming to be “subconscious”. By definition, if they were, you wouldn’t be aware of them and wouldn’t remember them. Lots of people dream (and it can be verified with brain scans) without remembering them.
- Jensson 4y ago
  > I believe neuroscientists don’t consider all dreaming to be “subconscious”. Can you consciously start to dream whenever you want? Otherwise I'd say that they are invoked by a subconscious process. Also forgetting something doesn't mean that the memory was never there. Even people who remember their dream directly after the night usually quickly forgets about them afterwards, you don't remember most of your dreams from a week ago, so that is easily explained by just saying that they cleaned up the memory of their dream before they woke up.
  - bumby 4y ago
    I think you’re conflating concepts like free will and consciousness. I can be conscious of a sound without willing the experience into existence. You’d have to act some of the lucid dreaming folks about the limitations of consciously directing dreams.
    - Jensson 4y ago
      > You’d have to act some of the lucid dreaming folks about the limitations of consciously directing dreams I'm very good at that though, as I said it is just a process that is asking you questions, and just like you can steer a conversation with what you say you can steer where that process takes the dream by how you behave in it. It will continue asking you about the stuff until it is no longer curious about the situation, and when it is it will steer the dream (conversation) to some other subject, putting you in some completely different environment etc. I'm not sure why that interpretation is so hard to believe. And I think that process also does a lot of computation that doesn't need to ask the conscious parts about anything, in those cases you wouldn't dream, its just doing something else.
      - af3d 4y ago
        Occasionally I too have this ability to "wake up" within a dream and thus exert at least some form of influence over it, such as an ability to fly around the dreamscape. I even came up with a system to reliably verify whether or not I was indeed in a dream state. It's very simple actually. The first thing I do is look around for something with writing on it. Having done that I then turn my head and then back. If the wording has changed, I am dreaming. If I don't do something like that, I fall back into the "subconscious dreaming state" much faster than I would have than otherwise.
      - bumby 4y ago
        It’s not that the conjecture is hard to believe, it’s that it’s being muddled by sloppy language. If, as you say, you are aware of something, it is by definition now in your conscious mind. The idea that it originates somewhere else is not a new concept. Buddhists have been claiming “thoughts think themselves” for a long time.