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Not just immediate sales, but a long term revenue stream. Toyota will make $0 off selling me replacement heated seat switches because I don't have them. Their

by VLM 4y ago

Not just immediate sales, but a long term revenue stream. Toyota will make $0 off selling me replacement heated seat switches because I don't have them. Their only hope of a revenue stream is to carefully engineer the valve cover gasket to start leaking at 50K miles or similar.

ghaff 4y ago
Oh please. Go back a few decades and that car at 50K miles was probably ready for the junkyard, especially in areas with snow and salt. Arguing that modern cars are engineered to be unreliable is simply contrary to reality.
- everdrive 4y ago
  The pendulum is swinging back a bit, and old cars would generally make it to 100k, and some old models had no problem far exceeding that. Modern cars are all currently wrestling with carbon buildup on their valves due to gasoline direct injection, which is really not great for long term reliability. I have a friend who's relatively recently-made Hyundai (2015-2016?) barely crawled to 100k. The complexity of modern cars hasn't made them terrible from a reliability standpoint, however we are definitely seeing some backsliding on progress.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    I do have to say that I had to buy a new vehicle last summer to replace a 13-year old one and the sheer number of sensors, motors, and other features--at least some of which seem rather gratuitous--gave me some pause. And this was a very middle-of-the-road Honda. Certainly a lot of modern vehicles are very reliable although I wonder if they could be even more reliable if, e.g. the side mirrors didn't tilt down every time you backed up.
  - UncleEntity 4y ago
    Do you think these cars get crushed or are bought by someone who drives them until they are really dead? I hate to be that guy but the whole automotive market has been like that for as long as there has been an automotive market. One person’s unreliable old car they bought new is someone else’s daily driver that they get their cousin to keep on the road for beers.
    - everdrive 4y ago
      This really depends on the failure. In the specific case of gasoline direct injection, a motor which has had poor carbon buildup might need to be totally rebuilt. And given the complexity of the motors, it's not like rebuilding an old flathead Ford engine. I'm definitely not saying that old cars are good and new cars are bad. But some of the problems of modern cars make long-term usage costlier and more difficult in some cases. To be clear, cars today are much more reliable than decades ago. I'm just making a small case that this reliability has been sliding backwards in some instances. Some modern cars are less reliable than the same model 10 years ago, and even when the car is not a total wash there are more things that break, and the cost and complexity of repair is higher.
      - UncleEntity 4y ago
        It’s all a matter of trade offs. Direct injection allows them to do some magical things inside the combustion chamber for efficiency/performance gains with the trade off that the valves are ‘dry’ so will need some maintenance down the line. Maybe you save more on fuel than the cost of having to pop off the head(s) down the line, maybe you don’t. Same with the multitude of sensors, knowing what exactly the engine is doing lets them control it more optimally. Though I do agree that they add too many unnecessary things like Heated Seats as a Service (looking at you BMW).
- hgsgm 4y ago
  "Modern" ICE car engine tech is now 20-30 years old. Even in the 1980s a 100K mile walk normal min lifespan
  - ghaff 4y ago
    With one exception, it's never been the powertrain that has caused me to get a new vehicle--it's mostly been corrosion and issues related to corrosion that have led me to retire cars. It is a lot better than it used to be but cars still rust out and/or have things like fluid leaks related to rust that cause other problems.
- rektide 4y ago
  I am pretty scared to see what happens to cars from the last 10 years as they age. The amount of computers im them is unbelievably high. Most of the chips will have been end of lifed, and whats to keep the car manufacturer making parts? Historically there was a lot of room for third parties tonmake repplacement parts, but it feels unapproachable. Hopefully these thousands of microcontrollers all kust keep running for many decades & this is a non-issue.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    When I bought a new vehicle last summer, I actually was persuaded to buy an extended warranty in part by the argument that there are so many computers in the car. I also got offered a (seemingly--I know I know) good deal.

by VLM 4y ago

ghaff 4y ago

Oh please. Go back a few decades and that car at 50K miles was probably ready for the junkyard, especially in areas with snow and salt. Arguing that modern cars are engineered to be unreliable is simply contrary to reality.

everdrive 4y ago
The pendulum is swinging back a bit, and old cars would generally make it to 100k, and some old models had no problem far exceeding that. Modern cars are all currently wrestling with carbon buildup on their valves due to gasoline direct injection, which is really not great for long term reliability. I have a friend who's relatively recently-made Hyundai (2015-2016?) barely crawled to 100k. The complexity of modern cars hasn't made them terrible from a reliability standpoint, however we are definitely seeing some backsliding on progress.
- ghaff 4y ago
  I do have to say that I had to buy a new vehicle last summer to replace a 13-year old one and the sheer number of sensors, motors, and other features--at least some of which seem rather gratuitous--gave me some pause. And this was a very middle-of-the-road Honda. Certainly a lot of modern vehicles are very reliable although I wonder if they could be even more reliable if, e.g. the side mirrors didn't tilt down every time you backed up.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  Do you think these cars get crushed or are bought by someone who drives them until they are really dead? I hate to be that guy but the whole automotive market has been like that for as long as there has been an automotive market. One person’s unreliable old car they bought new is someone else’s daily driver that they get their cousin to keep on the road for beers.
  - everdrive 4y ago
    This really depends on the failure. In the specific case of gasoline direct injection, a motor which has had poor carbon buildup might need to be totally rebuilt. And given the complexity of the motors, it's not like rebuilding an old flathead Ford engine. I'm definitely not saying that old cars are good and new cars are bad. But some of the problems of modern cars make long-term usage costlier and more difficult in some cases. To be clear, cars today are much more reliable than decades ago. I'm just making a small case that this reliability has been sliding backwards in some instances. Some modern cars are less reliable than the same model 10 years ago, and even when the car is not a total wash there are more things that break, and the cost and complexity of repair is higher.
    - UncleEntity 4y ago
      It’s all a matter of trade offs. Direct injection allows them to do some magical things inside the combustion chamber for efficiency/performance gains with the trade off that the valves are ‘dry’ so will need some maintenance down the line. Maybe you save more on fuel than the cost of having to pop off the head(s) down the line, maybe you don’t. Same with the multitude of sensors, knowing what exactly the engine is doing lets them control it more optimally. Though I do agree that they add too many unnecessary things like Heated Seats as a Service (looking at you BMW).
hgsgm 4y ago
"Modern" ICE car engine tech is now 20-30 years old. Even in the 1980s a 100K mile walk normal min lifespan
- ghaff 4y ago
  With one exception, it's never been the powertrain that has caused me to get a new vehicle--it's mostly been corrosion and issues related to corrosion that have led me to retire cars. It is a lot better than it used to be but cars still rust out and/or have things like fluid leaks related to rust that cause other problems.
rektide 4y ago
I am pretty scared to see what happens to cars from the last 10 years as they age. The amount of computers im them is unbelievably high. Most of the chips will have been end of lifed, and whats to keep the car manufacturer making parts? Historically there was a lot of room for third parties tonmake repplacement parts, but it feels unapproachable. Hopefully these thousands of microcontrollers all kust keep running for many decades & this is a non-issue.
- ghaff 4y ago
  When I bought a new vehicle last summer, I actually was persuaded to buy an extended warranty in part by the argument that there are so many computers in the car. I also got offered a (seemingly--I know I know) good deal.