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It's a universally agreed negotiation tactic to make the first offer Well, your argument was going better before you went this far, because now I'm going to ha

It's a universally agreed negotiation tactic to make the first offer Well, your argument was going better before you went this far, because now I'm going to have to ask you to take it up with Roger Dawson, author of the fairly-well-rated Secrets of Power Negotiating, from whom I learned the tactic of never naming the first number. And, while Dawson is probably exaggerating his status as one of the best negotiators on the planet - because he's got to be prepared in case you negotiate him down ;) - forgive me for betting on him against you. (Dawson's logic, by the way, is pretty clear: All else being equal, the default pattern of a negotiation is that one side names a number, the other side names a different number, and you compromise somewhere in the middle. And you're the second person you obviously have a big influence on exactly where the "middle" will be. If you want to end up at $125k, and your partner goes first and offers $120k, you know to ask for $130k or $135k, and now things go smoothly... but if you're asked to go first and you name $130k and your partner flinches and then says in a quavering voice that the budget will only stand $70k "but maybe we can make a one-time exception", now the "compromise" point is anchored around $100k and you're going to have to negotiate much more skillfully to claim your remaining $25k.) Does anyone have a negotiating book to recommend that offers fundamentally different advice from this?

badclient 15y ago
Why would a partner give a $70K counter in one case(when he goes second) and offer you $125K in the other case(when he goes first)? It seems contrary to my experience. In my experience, you are lowballed when you don't take control and set your price. Also, if you want $125K, you can either ask for $150K or not budge on $125K(and make it clear that it is non-negotiable beyond $5K) ... the no-budging works great if you have other similar offers. That is how I got my present salary anyway. You are talking about resetting anchors. While it can happen, generally the first number is a stronger anchor than the second.
- run4yourlives 15y ago
  >While it can happen, generally the first number is a stronger anchor than the second. Not so, because the second anchor sets another number the moment it is uttered: the middle ground. Employers may lowball you if you are forcing them to give a number, so what. If the number is insulting, you suggest that perhaps the interview is a waste of time and leave. Nothing lost. If the number is low but not crazy, you suggest that it is low - and won't be the final number - and carry on, taking this into account when you counter with your "high" number. If you are asking for $150 and "making it clear that $125 is the minimum" you've effectively lost out on the fact that the employer may have given you >$125, but only as a last resort to losing you completely. Setting the first anchor is generally a bad idea.
  - badclient 15y ago
    Nope, if you set it at $125K, you walk away from anything lower. That is how I do mine...I leave at most $5K room for negotiation but other than that, I tell them this is the fair salary in my view and they can match it or I walk. And indeed, I'll walk if they can't come pretty darn close to it. The $150K is if you want to play a more elaborate game. Then you don't say between $125K and $150K. But if they come back with a $130K counter, you take it.
    - run4yourlives 15y ago
      If you set it at $125, and get $125, their budget was probably at least $150. You're leaving money on the table and not even realizing it.
Timothee 15y ago
To be fair, shouldn't the first scenario be offering $70k as well? Otherwise it's biased towards the premise that you should say a number second. In that case, let's say you want $125k, and the company offers $70k before you say how much you want. Well, you're still in a difficult situation to get to $125k. Ask for $180k? That wouldn't fly. (I'd also say that if a company offers $70k for a position that should be around $125k, they're clearly indicating that they're trying to screw you over. So probably not worth pursuing) That being said, I feel that not giving the first number would be beneficial to me because I might then be offered more than what I would have said. (I think I've been mostly underpaid, so my perception of a fair salary is likely screwed up towards the bottom)
- mechanical_fish 15y ago
  I'm sorry, it probably would make a better argument if I hadn't used the $70k example. It would have been more believable and everyone knows that coders love symmetry. Except I just couldn't resist, because... truth is stranger than fiction, and I really have been offered 40% less than my desired salary. (Remember, to a nonprogrammer, programmers look like clerks. When you tell them how much you expect to earn, and they flinch, they may not even be play-acting: Why, for that kind of money they could have hired three clerks! People will generally not hesitate to offer you the median salary for white-collar workers of your age range, either because they're actually clueless or as an opening feint in negotiations; you need to be prepared for that.) Anyway, now that I've led us here, your scenario: You think you can earn $130k. A company opens with an offer of $70k. Do you really counter with $180k? Well, maybe you do! If you're negotiating with an experienced software engineer at a mainstream software company, you could certainly try it. The message you'd be sending is I recognize that you have just thrown me an embarrassing lowball, and I know you know how low that ball was, but I'm going to take it in good faith by assuming it was an obvious joke, and play along by lobbing an obvious highball right back at you. You should probably open with a hearty laugh, though, and make your counteroffer with a sly smile and maybe even a wink. But I, being excessively polite and fairly bad at broad back-slapping humor and pretty much a coward, would probably not do that. Instead I'd play it safe and assume that my counterparty is a babe in the woods - if they've just lowballed you by 45% they're certainly signaling that - and move them up more gently. I'd flinch (Dawson: "always flinch at the first proposal. Practice flinching. A wince, a cough, a pregnant pause, a slight chuckle, but flinch") and say something like "you know, the average starting salary for a Google programmer is far higher than that." Then talk about that for a while. [EDIT: In my first draft of this I named a number at this point. A number which was lower than my target. A rookie mistake! I really am bad at this. Perhaps it would be better to try and coach them closer to your target number before naming any number of your own.] But it will be hard to salvage a negotiation that starts so low. Give up and take it as a sign: You'll need to start marketing yourself to a higher class of employer, because you've made a mistake. Either you're ridiculously overestimating your earning potential or you're targeting the wrong market with the wrong message. See: patio11's other essay.

badclient 15y ago

Why would a partner give a $70K counter in one case(when he goes second) and offer you $125K in the other case(when he goes first)? It seems contrary to my experience. In my experience, you are lowballed when you don't take control and set your price. Also, if you want $125K, you can either ask for $150K or not budge on $125K(and make it clear that it is non-negotiable beyond $5K) ... the no-budging works great if you have other similar offers. That is how I got my present salary anyway. You are talking about resetting anchors. While it can happen, generally the first number is a stronger anchor than the second.

run4yourlives 15y ago
>While it can happen, generally the first number is a stronger anchor than the second. Not so, because the second anchor sets another number the moment it is uttered: the middle ground. Employers may lowball you if you are forcing them to give a number, so what. If the number is insulting, you suggest that perhaps the interview is a waste of time and leave. Nothing lost. If the number is low but not crazy, you suggest that it is low - and won't be the final number - and carry on, taking this into account when you counter with your "high" number. If you are asking for $150 and "making it clear that $125 is the minimum" you've effectively lost out on the fact that the employer may have given you >$125, but only as a last resort to losing you completely. Setting the first anchor is generally a bad idea.
- badclient 15y ago
  Nope, if you set it at $125K, you walk away from anything lower. That is how I do mine...I leave at most $5K room for negotiation but other than that, I tell them this is the fair salary in my view and they can match it or I walk. And indeed, I'll walk if they can't come pretty darn close to it. The $150K is if you want to play a more elaborate game. Then you don't say between $125K and $150K. But if they come back with a $130K counter, you take it.
  - run4yourlives 15y ago
    If you set it at $125, and get $125, their budget was probably at least $150. You're leaving money on the table and not even realizing it.

Timothee 15y ago

To be fair, shouldn't the first scenario be offering $70k as well? Otherwise it's biased towards the premise that you should say a number second. In that case, let's say you want $125k, and the company offers $70k before you say how much you want. Well, you're still in a difficult situation to get to $125k. Ask for $180k? That wouldn't fly. (I'd also say that if a company offers $70k for a position that should be around $125k, they're clearly indicating that they're trying to screw you over. So probably not worth pursuing) That being said, I feel that not giving the first number would be beneficial to me because I might then be offered more than what I would have said. (I think I've been mostly underpaid, so my perception of a fair salary is likely screwed up towards the bottom)

mechanical_fish 15y ago
I'm sorry, it probably would make a better argument if I hadn't used the $70k example. It would have been more believable and everyone knows that coders love symmetry. Except I just couldn't resist, because... truth is stranger than fiction, and I really have been offered 40% less than my desired salary. (Remember, to a nonprogrammer, programmers look like clerks. When you tell them how much you expect to earn, and they flinch, they may not even be play-acting: Why, for that kind of money they could have hired three clerks! People will generally not hesitate to offer you the median salary for white-collar workers of your age range, either because they're actually clueless or as an opening feint in negotiations; you need to be prepared for that.) Anyway, now that I've led us here, your scenario: You think you can earn $130k. A company opens with an offer of $70k. Do you really counter with $180k? Well, maybe you do! If you're negotiating with an experienced software engineer at a mainstream software company, you could certainly try it. The message you'd be sending is I recognize that you have just thrown me an embarrassing lowball, and I know you know how low that ball was, but I'm going to take it in good faith by assuming it was an obvious joke, and play along by lobbing an obvious highball right back at you. You should probably open with a hearty laugh, though, and make your counteroffer with a sly smile and maybe even a wink. But I, being excessively polite and fairly bad at broad back-slapping humor and pretty much a coward, would probably not do that. Instead I'd play it safe and assume that my counterparty is a babe in the woods - if they've just lowballed you by 45% they're certainly signaling that - and move them up more gently. I'd flinch (Dawson: "always flinch at the first proposal. Practice flinching. A wince, a cough, a pregnant pause, a slight chuckle, but flinch") and say something like "you know, the average starting salary for a Google programmer is far higher than that." Then talk about that for a while. [EDIT: In my first draft of this I named a number at this point. A number which was lower than my target. A rookie mistake! I really am bad at this. Perhaps it would be better to try and coach them closer to your target number before naming any number of your own.] But it will be hard to salvage a negotiation that starts so low. Give up and take it as a sign: You'll need to start marketing yourself to a higher class of employer, because you've made a mistake. Either you're ridiculously overestimating your earning potential or you're targeting the wrong market with the wrong message. See: patio11's other essay.