6 ms·

Good Omens had one of the most eye-opening introductions to old british currency on the level of monoids and endofunctors. Since then I'm avoiding both.

jmfldn 4y ago
“1 mite = 1/8 penny, 1 farthing = 1/4 penny, 2 farthings = 1 halfpenny (pronounced more like “haypenny”), 2 halfpence = 1 penny (or a ‘copper'), 2 pence = 1 tuppence or a half-groat, 3 pence = 1 thruppence, 4 pence = 1 groat, 6 pence = 1 sixpence (a ‘tanner'), 12 pence = 1 shilling (a bob), 2 shillings = 1 florin ( a ‘two bob bit'), 2 shillings and 6 pence = 1 half crown, 5 shillings = 1 Crown“ What's the problem ;) Joking-aside, it's amazing to me that anyone ever got fluent with this. My dad and grandparents never complain about the pre-decimalisation period so I guess you just get used to it. I think I'll stick to learning the category theory mentioned by op over this.
- kurthr 4y ago
  If a Crown was an hour, a mite would be 7min and 30sec. You could call 24 Crown and a Drown and 360 of those would be a Yawn. Throw in 5 or 6 extra Drown every Yawn, and you'd add a Drown to the 4th, 6th, 7th, and 11th Shawn of the Yawn, but subtract two Drown from the second Yawn, if you're electing a president, and then only subtract one, cuz Merica!
- MarcScott 4y ago
  It's no more complicated than measurements and weights in the imperial system. We're a weird country. We decimalised our currency, our weights and measures in shops and science, but we can't let go of imperial measures. Amongst the general population, people are far more comfortable talking about miles and miles per hour, than kilometers. Land sizes are still measured in acres and hectares. If you ask anyone their height, you'll probably get an answer in feet and inches, but ask their weight and they're more likely to tell you in kilograms rather than pounds and stone.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    Hectares are metric, 1ha = 100m × 100m = 10000m².
  - 7952 4y ago
    A lot of those things are not actively measured but are more experiential or used as an approximation. Height in feet is about how tall someone is, not their exact height. A mile to the pub is about how long it will take to walk, not the exact distance. Younger Brits will tend to use these terms in conversation but revert to metric more when something actually needs to be measured.
    - cassianoleal 4y ago
      > A mile to the pub is about how long it will take to walk, not the exact distance. Younger Brits will tend to use these terms in conversation but revert to metric more when something actually needs to be measured. Doesn't this get confusing when all traffic and road signs, car instruments, etc. are in miles and miles per hour?
      - Eisenstein 4y ago
        Don't even think about fuel efficiency ratings (MPG) vs. petrol dispense volume (L).
      - 7952 4y ago
        You don't typically need to reason about those numbers though. You know what 30mph feels like.
    - bolanyo 4y ago
      I don't recognize the 'vibiness' of imperial length and distance measurements at all. Perhaps this is a pareidolic interpretation which came to you when you noticed people using both sets of measurement types?
    - vmilner 4y ago
      I can’t remember when I last heard a Brit of any age use kilometres in any context.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > anyone ever got fluent with this. I think they didn't. It is a mix of colloquialisms of different origins (one farthing is "one fourth-ing" said too many times) but some might have been localized versions, etc or just used in specific situations. So I'm pretty sure most people knew some of those but not all of them. But if you think about it penny/nickel/dime etc is also confusing. Less confusing but still. Just tell me I'm 15 cents short or something like that.
  - dmurray 4y ago
    They all sound pretty standard to me, with the exception of "mite". I think at one point most people would absolutely have known all of them, but there were hundreds or thousands of other regional variations that would have been less known.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    I'm not sure there's a whole paragraph in this article without an error, omission or oversight. Mite doesn't have a standard definition. My unabridged Oxford dictionary says it was just a very small amount of money, and people gave it various definitions. Copper means any copper coin, it's never been specific to a one penny coin. Currently it means the copper-coloured coins, 1p or 2p. Groats as coins worth four pence were last issued in 1662, and according to the OED later 4 pence coins were called fourpence or fourpenny bits/pieces, including in casual speech. Most of the words are straightforward fractions or multiples of a penny, with optional slurred pronunciations: ¼ penny = farthing ½ penny = halfpenny or ha'penny 1 penny, usually abbreviated as 1d 2 pence = tuppence 3 pence = thruppence, thre'penny bit 4 pence = fourpence piece, fourpenny bit 6 pence = sixpence (slang: tanner) 12 pence = 1 shilling (slang: bob) 2 shillings = 1 florin (slang: two bob bit) 2s 6d = half crown 5 shillings = 1 crown 20 shillings = 4 crowns = 1 pound 21 shillings = 1 guinea As I understand it, normally prices and other quantities were spoken in pounds, shillings and pence unless they fitted a coin exactly. Something cost "6 shillings", not "1 crown 1 shilling" or "3 florins" etc. Just like the USA, where a movie ticket presumably once cost a nickel, then a dime, but then 15 cents. (Although none of the old words above are in standard usage in Britain.)
  - 4y ago
- gostsamo 4y ago
  People can accustom themselves to all kinds of unpleasantness and even grow fond of it, but the truth is that it is mental overload which might cause unnecessary errors.
- goodcanadian 4y ago
  Eh, it's not that complicated. It is just pounds, shillings, and pence. The rest are mostly just terms for coins that existed at various times, roughly equivalent to nickel, dime, quarter. Some of them are even slang terms (quid, bob) similar to buck or two bits.
  - jmfldn 4y ago
    No I know. I was being somewhat facetious. As someone else mentioned, us Brits still use imperial measurements (to some extent) and I get by, just about!
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    As mentioned here, you will often see historical prices quoted as £x ys zd ... which might lead to the question "why is a penny abbreviated to d"? In fact, the £ sign is a stylized letter L, and the system is really Lsd: libra (meaning, amongst other things, pound in Latin), solidus, denarius. This is the Carolingian monetary system and, as the name suggests, goes back to the Holy Roman Empire - as early as the 8th century. That includes the L 1 = 20 s = 240 d ratio that made its way to pre-decimalization British currency.
- alserio 4y ago
  The gold ones are Galleons. Seventeen silver Sickles to a Galleon and twenty-nine Knuts to a Sickle, it's easy enough.
- dontlaugh 4y ago
  A few people I talked to eventually admitted it was more common to get the wrong change in their youth than after decimalisation.
- DonaldFisk 4y ago
  Grew up in the 1960s, pre-decimal. In primary school, we learned to do arithmetic in pounds, shillings, and pence (but no longer farthings) and also learned imperial units. The coins in circulation at the time were 1/2d, 1d, 3d, 6d, 1/- (1s), 2/-, and 2/6d. There was also a 10/- banknote. Some prices were in guineas (21/-). They stopped minting groats (4d) after 1856 (except in Maundy money), half-farthings after 1870, and farthings after 1956. Farthings and silver thrupnies (3d) were still around but not in circulation. The florin (2/-, or a tenth of a pound) was introduced during the first attempt at decimalization in 1849. Crowns (5/-) were never in circulation, but were minted for special events such as coronations. They still are, but their face value is now £5. Decimalization began in 1968 with the introduction of 5p and 10p coins (same size and value as 1/- and 2/- coins) followed by the 50p coin (10/-) in 1969. It was completed in 1971 with the introduction of the 1/2p, 1p, and 2p coins. From secondary school onwards, it was decimal money and metric/SI units, which simplified calculations a bit. Ireland decimalized at the same time as UK, and Australia and New Zealand a few years earlier (at the rate of two dollars to one pound).
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    > and 2/6d. Also known as half a crown, or two-and-six.
  - hakfoo 4y ago
    I think crowns circulated up to the end of Victoria's reign. They're widely found in circulated conditions.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > it's amazing to me that anyone ever got fluent with this. Twelve (pence to the shilling) is actually quite a convenient way of denominating money. Twelve has more divisors than ten, which makes a lot of calculations easier. It wasn't so hard to learn the basics - 12 pence to the shilling, 20 shillings to the pound; a child could do it. But working out 17.5% VAT on a transaction in decimal coinage isn't so much fun.
- jt2190 4y ago
  > What's the problem ;) Frustratingly, the article doesn't say! For example, could the reason for the weird fractions be coin cutting? [1] [1] "Medieval Cut Pennies" https://www.cointalk.com/threads/medieval-cut-pennies.266902/ https://www.cointalk.com/threads/medieval-cut-pennies.266902...
- irrational 4y ago
  I assume that is how people that are only familiar with metric view the imperial measurement system. 1/64, 1/32, 1/16, 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 7/16, 1/2, 9/16, 5/8, 11/16, etc. for inches. 1 inch = 1/12 foot, 2 inches = 1/6 foot, etc. I use all of these so often on woodworking that it is super easy for me. I presume that same was for money in the pre-digital age.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jmfldn 4y ago

“1 mite = 1/8 penny, 1 farthing = 1/4 penny, 2 farthings = 1 halfpenny (pronounced more like “haypenny”), 2 halfpence = 1 penny (or a ‘copper'), 2 pence = 1 tuppence or a half-groat, 3 pence = 1 thruppence, 4 pence = 1 groat, 6 pence = 1 sixpence (a ‘tanner'), 12 pence = 1 shilling (a bob), 2 shillings = 1 florin ( a ‘two bob bit'), 2 shillings and 6 pence = 1 half crown, 5 shillings = 1 Crown“ What's the problem ;) Joking-aside, it's amazing to me that anyone ever got fluent with this. My dad and grandparents never complain about the pre-decimalisation period so I guess you just get used to it. I think I'll stick to learning the category theory mentioned by op over this.

kurthr 4y ago
If a Crown was an hour, a mite would be 7min and 30sec. You could call 24 Crown and a Drown and 360 of those would be a Yawn. Throw in 5 or 6 extra Drown every Yawn, and you'd add a Drown to the 4th, 6th, 7th, and 11th Shawn of the Yawn, but subtract two Drown from the second Yawn, if you're electing a president, and then only subtract one, cuz Merica!
MarcScott 4y ago
It's no more complicated than measurements and weights in the imperial system. We're a weird country. We decimalised our currency, our weights and measures in shops and science, but we can't let go of imperial measures. Amongst the general population, people are far more comfortable talking about miles and miles per hour, than kilometers. Land sizes are still measured in acres and hectares. If you ask anyone their height, you'll probably get an answer in feet and inches, but ask their weight and they're more likely to tell you in kilograms rather than pounds and stone.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Hectares are metric, 1ha = 100m × 100m = 10000m².
- 7952 4y ago
  A lot of those things are not actively measured but are more experiential or used as an approximation. Height in feet is about how tall someone is, not their exact height. A mile to the pub is about how long it will take to walk, not the exact distance. Younger Brits will tend to use these terms in conversation but revert to metric more when something actually needs to be measured.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    > A mile to the pub is about how long it will take to walk, not the exact distance. Younger Brits will tend to use these terms in conversation but revert to metric more when something actually needs to be measured. Doesn't this get confusing when all traffic and road signs, car instruments, etc. are in miles and miles per hour?
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      Don't even think about fuel efficiency ratings (MPG) vs. petrol dispense volume (L).
    - 7952 4y ago
      You don't typically need to reason about those numbers though. You know what 30mph feels like.
  - bolanyo 4y ago
    I don't recognize the 'vibiness' of imperial length and distance measurements at all. Perhaps this is a pareidolic interpretation which came to you when you noticed people using both sets of measurement types?
  - vmilner 4y ago
    I can’t remember when I last heard a Brit of any age use kilometres in any context.
raverbashing 4y ago
> anyone ever got fluent with this. I think they didn't. It is a mix of colloquialisms of different origins (one farthing is "one fourth-ing" said too many times) but some might have been localized versions, etc or just used in specific situations. So I'm pretty sure most people knew some of those but not all of them. But if you think about it penny/nickel/dime etc is also confusing. Less confusing but still. Just tell me I'm 15 cents short or something like that.
- dmurray 4y ago
  They all sound pretty standard to me, with the exception of "mite". I think at one point most people would absolutely have known all of them, but there were hundreds or thousands of other regional variations that would have been less known.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  I'm not sure there's a whole paragraph in this article without an error, omission or oversight. Mite doesn't have a standard definition. My unabridged Oxford dictionary says it was just a very small amount of money, and people gave it various definitions. Copper means any copper coin, it's never been specific to a one penny coin. Currently it means the copper-coloured coins, 1p or 2p. Groats as coins worth four pence were last issued in 1662, and according to the OED later 4 pence coins were called fourpence or fourpenny bits/pieces, including in casual speech. Most of the words are straightforward fractions or multiples of a penny, with optional slurred pronunciations: ¼ penny = farthing ½ penny = halfpenny or ha'penny 1 penny, usually abbreviated as 1d 2 pence = tuppence 3 pence = thruppence, thre'penny bit 4 pence = fourpence piece, fourpenny bit 6 pence = sixpence (slang: tanner) 12 pence = 1 shilling (slang: bob) 2 shillings = 1 florin (slang: two bob bit) 2s 6d = half crown 5 shillings = 1 crown 20 shillings = 4 crowns = 1 pound 21 shillings = 1 guinea As I understand it, normally prices and other quantities were spoken in pounds, shillings and pence unless they fitted a coin exactly. Something cost "6 shillings", not "1 crown 1 shilling" or "3 florins" etc. Just like the USA, where a movie ticket presumably once cost a nickel, then a dime, but then 15 cents. (Although none of the old words above are in standard usage in Britain.)
- 4y ago
gostsamo 4y ago
People can accustom themselves to all kinds of unpleasantness and even grow fond of it, but the truth is that it is mental overload which might cause unnecessary errors.
goodcanadian 4y ago
Eh, it's not that complicated. It is just pounds, shillings, and pence. The rest are mostly just terms for coins that existed at various times, roughly equivalent to nickel, dime, quarter. Some of them are even slang terms (quid, bob) similar to buck or two bits.
- jmfldn 4y ago
  No I know. I was being somewhat facetious. As someone else mentioned, us Brits still use imperial measurements (to some extent) and I get by, just about!
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  As mentioned here, you will often see historical prices quoted as £x ys zd ... which might lead to the question "why is a penny abbreviated to d"? In fact, the £ sign is a stylized letter L, and the system is really Lsd: libra (meaning, amongst other things, pound in Latin), solidus, denarius. This is the Carolingian monetary system and, as the name suggests, goes back to the Holy Roman Empire - as early as the 8th century. That includes the L 1 = 20 s = 240 d ratio that made its way to pre-decimalization British currency.
alserio 4y ago
The gold ones are Galleons. Seventeen silver Sickles to a Galleon and twenty-nine Knuts to a Sickle, it's easy enough.
dontlaugh 4y ago
A few people I talked to eventually admitted it was more common to get the wrong change in their youth than after decimalisation.
DonaldFisk 4y ago
Grew up in the 1960s, pre-decimal. In primary school, we learned to do arithmetic in pounds, shillings, and pence (but no longer farthings) and also learned imperial units. The coins in circulation at the time were 1/2d, 1d, 3d, 6d, 1/- (1s), 2/-, and 2/6d. There was also a 10/- banknote. Some prices were in guineas (21/-). They stopped minting groats (4d) after 1856 (except in Maundy money), half-farthings after 1870, and farthings after 1956. Farthings and silver thrupnies (3d) were still around but not in circulation. The florin (2/-, or a tenth of a pound) was introduced during the first attempt at decimalization in 1849. Crowns (5/-) were never in circulation, but were minted for special events such as coronations. They still are, but their face value is now £5. Decimalization began in 1968 with the introduction of 5p and 10p coins (same size and value as 1/- and 2/- coins) followed by the 50p coin (10/-) in 1969. It was completed in 1971 with the introduction of the 1/2p, 1p, and 2p coins. From secondary school onwards, it was decimal money and metric/SI units, which simplified calculations a bit. Ireland decimalized at the same time as UK, and Australia and New Zealand a few years earlier (at the rate of two dollars to one pound).
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > and 2/6d. Also known as half a crown, or two-and-six.
- hakfoo 4y ago
  I think crowns circulated up to the end of Victoria's reign. They're widely found in circulated conditions.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> it's amazing to me that anyone ever got fluent with this. Twelve (pence to the shilling) is actually quite a convenient way of denominating money. Twelve has more divisors than ten, which makes a lot of calculations easier. It wasn't so hard to learn the basics - 12 pence to the shilling, 20 shillings to the pound; a child could do it. But working out 17.5% VAT on a transaction in decimal coinage isn't so much fun.
jt2190 4y ago
> What's the problem ;) Frustratingly, the article doesn't say! For example, could the reason for the weird fractions be coin cutting? [1] [1] "Medieval Cut Pennies" https://www.cointalk.com/threads/medieval-cut-pennies.266902/ https://www.cointalk.com/threads/medieval-cut-pennies.266902...
irrational 4y ago
I assume that is how people that are only familiar with metric view the imperial measurement system. 1/64, 1/32, 1/16, 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 7/16, 1/2, 9/16, 5/8, 11/16, etc. for inches. 1 inch = 1/12 foot, 2 inches = 1/6 foot, etc. I use all of these so often on woodworking that it is super easy for me. I presume that same was for money in the pre-digital age.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]