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I would consider myself quite the power user and use both macOS and Linux daily… I don’t really understand, from the developer perspective, your concerns about

by ar_lan 4y ago

I would consider myself quite the power user and use both macOS and Linux daily… I don’t really understand, from the developer perspective, your concerns about macOS? While I prefer the feel of Linux, macOS is more than sufficient for almost any development I do (which also involves a lot of container/VM development and I’ve never felt this was slow).

moondev 4y ago
macOS can't run Linux containers because it's not Linux. It requires a vm and additional tooling, configuration, resources and just general considerations because of this. It's also impossible to work with anything KVM related on macOS, which would require a vm inside a vm and is not supported on any M1 or M2 hypervisor.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Maybe it is time to understand the difference between being UNIX and yet another Linux distribution?
fhd2 4y ago
I used mostly macOS for the last few years, with the occasional Linux. Recently I switched back to Linux (System76 laptop) completely, and only now do I realise how complacent I've been with macOS. There's stuff like iTunes opening every time I connected BT headphones, and regular attempts to nag me into using Safari. Then there's a boat load of issues I found workarounds for: The window manager with its fullscreen mode and lack of tiling (Spectacle makes that bearable), the unique modifier keys that don't work well out of the box with readline shortcuts in the terminal and such, the often still manual process of installing and updating apps (maybe I could have used Brew or MacPorts more heavily), the inability to debug and fix any OS problems, and a literal hundred small things I can't even remember from the top of my head. These things are all individually so small that I didn't event think about it, but when I realised the sheer quantity, I felt like I was in a codependent relationship with my main tool. Apple doesn't seem to care even remotely about users like me, and that's perfectly within their rights. The logical thing for me was to use something else.
- ar_lan 4y ago
  Appreciate the reply. > There's stuff like iTunes opening every time I connected BT headphones, and regular attempts to nag me into using Safari. I don't know if these are legacy concerns, but this has not happened to me ever in the past 3 years. > The window manager with its fullscreen mode and lack of tiling (Spectacle makes that bearable) Yabai solves this very well. > the often still manual process of installing and updating apps (maybe I could have used Brew or MacPorts more heavily) I recommend Nix and Homebrew. > the inability to debug and fix any OS problems, How often do you run into this? I just don't really. I remember in my earlier days I did a bit because of some pinned package versions prevalent in macOS but when I switched to using Nix this went away, so I haven't run into any OS issues since... I think Catalina. > Apple doesn't seem to care even remotely about users like me, and that's perfectly within their rights. The logical thing for me was to use something else. That's totally fair. I love my MacBook, but I also have not run into the same struggles. I think my experience has been the complete opposite - once I configured it properly, it not only "just works", but I've yet to find a laptop that connects other aspects so seamlessly (AirPods, FaceTime, iMessage, Notes are all killer features in my day-to-day). Additionally, since switching to the M1, I have yet to find a laptop comparable in battery life (speed is generally matched when considering prices).
kreetx 4y ago
This largely depends on what you do, e.g macos doesn't have systemd and the features it depends on. I guess you can do all of what Linux does through containers but then it's just more cumbersome. That said, if your workflow is to run everything containerized already, then running macOS as the base layer works just fine.
- mtrower 4y ago
  > macos doesn't have systemd Some would consider this a feature. Unfortunately it does have launchd, essentially the model from whence systemd sprung... so joy for those folks would likely be short lived.
sofixa 4y ago
> I don’t really understand, from the developer perspective, your concerns about macOS? It is not an OS that is made for power users. The UX is for non-technical people mostly, with vague errors that try (and usually succeed) to hide any details from you, making many things thoroughly undebuggable. When something doesn't work, best case scenario is "try turning it off and on again" (e.g. if iPad screen extending doesn't work and there is absolutely no information anywhere on why, what prerequisite you're failing. The button just isn't there and that's it, deal with it. I had to restart both devices for it to work; another fun one is "a USB device is consuming too much power and has been shut down, replug it" without saying which device and without any way to detect which device (they all still worked)). Also the lacking facilities around basic stuff for developer productivity like window management and containers.
- ar_lan 4y ago
  > Also the lacking facilities around basic stuff for developer productivity like window management and containers. This isn't true, though? Just use yabai.
OmarAssadi 4y ago
For me, it's less of a macOS inherent issue and more so that many, many things just assume Linux by default. Anything you find on GitHub that relies on some sort of native module is really hit or miss in terms of "will this just work, or will I need to go waste a couple of hours or resort to a VM?" For example, I've run into a couple of occasions where I've needed to build some third-party thing that happens to also need something like QEMU, but the build scripts only run on Linux. Annoying, but whatever, setup a Linux VM/"container" and good to go, right? ... except there is no nested virtualization support on the M1 macs. Outside of those sort of issues and other ARM-specific problems, while it doesn't usually impact my workflow too much, I wish I had more control over the system. I wish, for example, it could boot off of something other than APFS, etc. I don't want to have to deal with Time Machine when I've already got snapshots everywhere else, etc. Everything is relatively minor, but there is always some new thing that makes me annoyed every week or two.

by ar_lan 4y ago

moondev 4y ago

macOS can't run Linux containers because it's not Linux. It requires a vm and additional tooling, configuration, resources and just general considerations because of this. It's also impossible to work with anything KVM related on macOS, which would require a vm inside a vm and is not supported on any M1 or M2 hypervisor.

pjmlp 4y ago
Maybe it is time to understand the difference between being UNIX and yet another Linux distribution?

fhd2 4y ago

I used mostly macOS for the last few years, with the occasional Linux. Recently I switched back to Linux (System76 laptop) completely, and only now do I realise how complacent I've been with macOS. There's stuff like iTunes opening every time I connected BT headphones, and regular attempts to nag me into using Safari. Then there's a boat load of issues I found workarounds for: The window manager with its fullscreen mode and lack of tiling (Spectacle makes that bearable), the unique modifier keys that don't work well out of the box with readline shortcuts in the terminal and such, the often still manual process of installing and updating apps (maybe I could have used Brew or MacPorts more heavily), the inability to debug and fix any OS problems, and a literal hundred small things I can't even remember from the top of my head. These things are all individually so small that I didn't event think about it, but when I realised the sheer quantity, I felt like I was in a codependent relationship with my main tool. Apple doesn't seem to care even remotely about users like me, and that's perfectly within their rights. The logical thing for me was to use something else.

ar_lan 4y ago
Appreciate the reply. > There's stuff like iTunes opening every time I connected BT headphones, and regular attempts to nag me into using Safari. I don't know if these are legacy concerns, but this has not happened to me ever in the past 3 years. > The window manager with its fullscreen mode and lack of tiling (Spectacle makes that bearable) Yabai solves this very well. > the often still manual process of installing and updating apps (maybe I could have used Brew or MacPorts more heavily) I recommend Nix and Homebrew. > the inability to debug and fix any OS problems, How often do you run into this? I just don't really. I remember in my earlier days I did a bit because of some pinned package versions prevalent in macOS but when I switched to using Nix this went away, so I haven't run into any OS issues since... I think Catalina. > Apple doesn't seem to care even remotely about users like me, and that's perfectly within their rights. The logical thing for me was to use something else. That's totally fair. I love my MacBook, but I also have not run into the same struggles. I think my experience has been the complete opposite - once I configured it properly, it not only "just works", but I've yet to find a laptop that connects other aspects so seamlessly (AirPods, FaceTime, iMessage, Notes are all killer features in my day-to-day). Additionally, since switching to the M1, I have yet to find a laptop comparable in battery life (speed is generally matched when considering prices).

kreetx 4y ago

This largely depends on what you do, e.g macos doesn't have systemd and the features it depends on. I guess you can do all of what Linux does through containers but then it's just more cumbersome. That said, if your workflow is to run everything containerized already, then running macOS as the base layer works just fine.

mtrower 4y ago
> macos doesn't have systemd Some would consider this a feature. Unfortunately it does have launchd, essentially the model from whence systemd sprung... so joy for those folks would likely be short lived.

sofixa 4y ago

> I don’t really understand, from the developer perspective, your concerns about macOS? It is not an OS that is made for power users. The UX is for non-technical people mostly, with vague errors that try (and usually succeed) to hide any details from you, making many things thoroughly undebuggable. When something doesn't work, best case scenario is "try turning it off and on again" (e.g. if iPad screen extending doesn't work and there is absolutely no information anywhere on why, what prerequisite you're failing. The button just isn't there and that's it, deal with it. I had to restart both devices for it to work; another fun one is "a USB device is consuming too much power and has been shut down, replug it" without saying which device and without any way to detect which device (they all still worked)). Also the lacking facilities around basic stuff for developer productivity like window management and containers.

ar_lan 4y ago
> Also the lacking facilities around basic stuff for developer productivity like window management and containers. This isn't true, though? Just use yabai.

OmarAssadi 4y ago

For me, it's less of a macOS inherent issue and more so that many, many things just assume Linux by default. Anything you find on GitHub that relies on some sort of native module is really hit or miss in terms of "will this just work, or will I need to go waste a couple of hours or resort to a VM?" For example, I've run into a couple of occasions where I've needed to build some third-party thing that happens to also need something like QEMU, but the build scripts only run on Linux. Annoying, but whatever, setup a Linux VM/"container" and good to go, right? ... except there is no nested virtualization support on the M1 macs. Outside of those sort of issues and other ARM-specific problems, while it doesn't usually impact my workflow too much, I wish I had more control over the system. I wish, for example, it could boot off of something other than APFS, etc. I don't want to have to deal with Time Machine when I've already got snapshots everywhere else, etc. Everything is relatively minor, but there is always some new thing that makes me annoyed every week or two.