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Thanks for reading, and I'm happy you found it entertaining. Firstly, that watching senior management for signs that they know if things are bad, or if they be

Thanks for reading, and I'm happy you found it entertaining. Firstly, that watching senior management for signs that they know if things are bad, or if they believe their own stories, is a waste of time. Competent managers who want to do well by their employees and grifters behave in largely the same way when talking to the lower ranks. Secondly, pointing out things that are obviously problems in honest language can be unhelpful to the ultimate strategy of a competent manager. "This project was a failure", while seemingly a way to draw attention to what needs to be improved, may make it more likely for the next project to be a failure. Thirdly, large organisations may require you to lie frequently if you want to improve things (or at least, not contest lies, which seems to be functionally the same thing). And yes, if it seems open-ended, that's because I'm not sure if how many clear lessons there were. There are at least a few, namely around the utility of pretending things are okay. But the big questions seem intensely personal. The ones I'm asking myself are, now that I know what the strategy is to improve things: 1. Am I willing to lie for years if it means actual progress? 2. How can I tell when I'm working for a good person when not every organisation is going to have someone that tells me what's really happening in senior management? 3. Is it worth the hassle of getting promoted any higher if this is what good work at that level requires? At the moment, I can at least stick to dishonesty through silence when someone says something I know isn't true. One or two levels up and I'll have to fabricate my own success stories. 4. Is there a way to be a senior manager or executive that can be honest and still see results? Some certainly lie less than others, but the correlation to their success is obfuscated by sheer dumb luck, social skills, etc. EDIT: And you know what, 5. Is this all just some absolutely bogus justification for collecting a ton of money for not producing anything meaningful? That's an option too.

nuancebydefault 4y ago
Thank you very much for taking the time to provide us with this elaborate answer. Though I think there's truth to your skeptical view and tentative conclusions, I believe a more nuanced theory would be closer to reality. 1. Indeed management needs to lie regularly. Probably after a while they will consider them coloured white more easily. 2. You can't. It can be compared to donating to charity, you're never sure if it is well spent. 3. If you already are holding horses to not lie at your current function class, probably it is better to leave than to make promotion. Also, not all companies are the same, some are based on a piramid of lies, other much less so. After being part of different types of organizations, I can safely conclude. 4. Complete honesty is a utopian take. Compare it to honesty in a relationship, sometimes it is better to remain silent, even if you vowed to the contrary. 5. For some, for sure. For most, it is more about power and recognition. That does not nedd be a bad thing. As a tentative conclusion, to me it is very clear it would be good for your health to look out for another employer. You will see that there is a huge difference between organisations. Your grim outlook will brighten up, I can almost guarantee.
- ludicity 4y ago
  Very much the conclusions I had reached myself over the past few days, where it seems that some degree of dishonesty is necessary and a lot of it depends on the people you're working with (I guess we should be nuanced by default). You're right though, I've been doing this after finding an employer that has much happier staff than most I've worked at, on a team that actually accomplishes complex tasks. It was a massive improvement to my mental health (i.e, your advice is good), but ultimately, my work is still largely wasted due to organizational issues. I don't consider this outlook terribly grim. I'm always free to pick up another career or start my own business, and I think it's less upsetting to realize that some of the people lying at least have good motivations. I think 2. is the crux of the matter - if you can't be sure it is time well-spent, it makes a lot of sense to exit structures where that is the case, assuming two things. One being that you highly value your work producing something (as opposed to say, not having much stress at work) and two being that you believe you can reasonably find better work. On the latter point, as I was discussing with a friend who is quite senior the other day, it depends entirely on whether you've given up on finding a truly impactful/happy workplace. Many of my friends in tech have gone for the latter, and are simply trying to get their salaries high enough to retire ASAP. Some smaller group have been working hard to transform faulty organizations with mixed results. I have friends outside of tech who have no such qualms, and have happily found roles where they know they're having a positive social impact, earn decently, and manage their own time (and being their own manager seems to be an effective antidote to needing to lie - perhaps there's some interface with a customer where they might need to stretch the truth a bit, but it's not like book store owners and barbers are walking around spouting off garbage all day). In any case, I very much appreciate your thoughts!

nuancebydefault 4y ago

Thank you very much for taking the time to provide us with this elaborate answer. Though I think there's truth to your skeptical view and tentative conclusions, I believe a more nuanced theory would be closer to reality. 1. Indeed management needs to lie regularly. Probably after a while they will consider them coloured white more easily. 2. You can't. It can be compared to donating to charity, you're never sure if it is well spent. 3. If you already are holding horses to not lie at your current function class, probably it is better to leave than to make promotion. Also, not all companies are the same, some are based on a piramid of lies, other much less so. After being part of different types of organizations, I can safely conclude. 4. Complete honesty is a utopian take. Compare it to honesty in a relationship, sometimes it is better to remain silent, even if you vowed to the contrary. 5. For some, for sure. For most, it is more about power and recognition. That does not nedd be a bad thing. As a tentative conclusion, to me it is very clear it would be good for your health to look out for another employer. You will see that there is a huge difference between organisations. Your grim outlook will brighten up, I can almost guarantee.

ludicity 4y ago
Very much the conclusions I had reached myself over the past few days, where it seems that some degree of dishonesty is necessary and a lot of it depends on the people you're working with (I guess we should be nuanced by default). You're right though, I've been doing this after finding an employer that has much happier staff than most I've worked at, on a team that actually accomplishes complex tasks. It was a massive improvement to my mental health (i.e, your advice is good), but ultimately, my work is still largely wasted due to organizational issues. I don't consider this outlook terribly grim. I'm always free to pick up another career or start my own business, and I think it's less upsetting to realize that some of the people lying at least have good motivations. I think 2. is the crux of the matter - if you can't be sure it is time well-spent, it makes a lot of sense to exit structures where that is the case, assuming two things. One being that you highly value your work producing something (as opposed to say, not having much stress at work) and two being that you believe you can reasonably find better work. On the latter point, as I was discussing with a friend who is quite senior the other day, it depends entirely on whether you've given up on finding a truly impactful/happy workplace. Many of my friends in tech have gone for the latter, and are simply trying to get their salaries high enough to retire ASAP. Some smaller group have been working hard to transform faulty organizations with mixed results. I have friends outside of tech who have no such qualms, and have happily found roles where they know they're having a positive social impact, earn decently, and manage their own time (and being their own manager seems to be an effective antidote to needing to lie - perhaps there's some interface with a customer where they might need to stretch the truth a bit, but it's not like book store owners and barbers are walking around spouting off garbage all day). In any case, I very much appreciate your thoughts!