4 ms·

Very silly take. If the property value changes, the loan doesn't. You're responsible for maintenance. I don't see how it's relevant that you have a loan against

by verall 4y ago

Very silly take. If the property value changes, the loan doesn't. You're responsible for maintenance. I don't see how it's relevant that you have a loan against it. If you own your home outright, and then take out a HELOC, do you no longer own your home?

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sixstringtheory 4y ago
> If the property value changes, the loan doesn't That works both ways. Google "underwater mortgage"
- verall 4y ago
  Obviously, which is why you are the homeowner and the bank isn't.
  - sixstringtheory 4y ago
    Depends on your definition of "own" I suppose. If you have a mortgage, the bank has a mortgage lien on the home, which gives them a legal right to take it from you if you don't pay. I.e. you will get kicked to the curb on an underwater mortgage if you can't make the payments any longer, but also can't afford to bridge the gap in order to sell.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > If you have a mortgage, the bank has a mortgage lien on the home, which gives them a legal right to take it from you if you don't pay. I.e. you will get kicked to the curb on an underwater mortgage if you can't make the payments any longer, but also can't afford to bridge the gap in order to sell. In a non-recourse state (or, to a lesser extent, even in a recourse state) foreclosure on an underwater mortgage loans isn't a great deal for the bank; it either eliminates any chance on recovering part of the mortgage (non-recourse), or turns the amount above what can be realized in a foreclosure sale into a non-secured debt (recourse). Depending on circumstances, there's a chance they'll just choose not to do that for a very long time (much longer than would be the case either with an "above water" mortgage that wasn't being paid, or than a landlord would float a tenant that wasn't paying.) They also have a pretty big incentive to approve a short sale on an underwater mortgage, since you'll probably get a better price than a foreclosure sale and cost them less money than foreclosing and trying to sell. (Have I been underwater, gone an extended period of time withput paying a mortgage both while living in the home and then after moving out, getting a buyer, and proposing and waiting for approval for a short sale, in a non-recourse state? Yes, yes I have.)
      - sixstringtheory 4y ago
        Dang, that sounds stressful. Hope you came out the other end of that ok! And thanks for the extra context and sharing your experience.
nerdchum 4y ago
value doesn't mean anything in this case. what matters is that someone can take away your property if you don't do what they say. That's not ownership.
- medvezhenok 4y ago
  Same thing happens in a paid off house if you don't pay your property tax.
  - nerdchum 4y ago
    Exactly. You're a SERF to the government forever! People lose their house often to runaway property taxes. This should anger people more.
    - verall 4y ago
      This is unhinged. If purchasing a piece of land means that it stays within your family forever with no additional payments or taxes, that's feudalism.
      - nerdchum 4y ago
        I don't think you understand. feudalism. you should google it. feudalism is NOT owning your land because the government owns it and you pay them for the use of the land which is exactly what we have now.
        verall 4y ago
        If the government exists to protect property rights through use of force, and property owners have access to that system without paying taxes, what do you call the rest of us, who have to pay rents to those property owners and taxes for the government? Not serfs? Even feudal lords had to protect their own land and were also expected to protect their serfs, lest their serfs' foods be given to raiders rather than their lord.

by verall 4y ago

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sixstringtheory 4y ago

> If the property value changes, the loan doesn't That works both ways. Google "underwater mortgage"

verall 4y ago
Obviously, which is why you are the homeowner and the bank isn't.
- sixstringtheory 4y ago
  Depends on your definition of "own" I suppose. If you have a mortgage, the bank has a mortgage lien on the home, which gives them a legal right to take it from you if you don't pay. I.e. you will get kicked to the curb on an underwater mortgage if you can't make the payments any longer, but also can't afford to bridge the gap in order to sell.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > If you have a mortgage, the bank has a mortgage lien on the home, which gives them a legal right to take it from you if you don't pay. I.e. you will get kicked to the curb on an underwater mortgage if you can't make the payments any longer, but also can't afford to bridge the gap in order to sell. In a non-recourse state (or, to a lesser extent, even in a recourse state) foreclosure on an underwater mortgage loans isn't a great deal for the bank; it either eliminates any chance on recovering part of the mortgage (non-recourse), or turns the amount above what can be realized in a foreclosure sale into a non-secured debt (recourse). Depending on circumstances, there's a chance they'll just choose not to do that for a very long time (much longer than would be the case either with an "above water" mortgage that wasn't being paid, or than a landlord would float a tenant that wasn't paying.) They also have a pretty big incentive to approve a short sale on an underwater mortgage, since you'll probably get a better price than a foreclosure sale and cost them less money than foreclosing and trying to sell. (Have I been underwater, gone an extended period of time withput paying a mortgage both while living in the home and then after moving out, getting a buyer, and proposing and waiting for approval for a short sale, in a non-recourse state? Yes, yes I have.)
    - sixstringtheory 4y ago
      Dang, that sounds stressful. Hope you came out the other end of that ok! And thanks for the extra context and sharing your experience.

nerdchum 4y ago

value doesn't mean anything in this case. what matters is that someone can take away your property if you don't do what they say. That's not ownership.

medvezhenok 4y ago
Same thing happens in a paid off house if you don't pay your property tax.
- nerdchum 4y ago
  Exactly. You're a SERF to the government forever! People lose their house often to runaway property taxes. This should anger people more.
  - verall 4y ago
    This is unhinged. If purchasing a piece of land means that it stays within your family forever with no additional payments or taxes, that's feudalism.
    - nerdchum 4y ago
      I don't think you understand. feudalism. you should google it. feudalism is NOT owning your land because the government owns it and you pay them for the use of the land which is exactly what we have now.
      - verall 4y ago
        If the government exists to protect property rights through use of force, and property owners have access to that system without paying taxes, what do you call the rest of us, who have to pay rents to those property owners and taxes for the government? Not serfs? Even feudal lords had to protect their own land and were also expected to protect their serfs, lest their serfs' foods be given to raiders rather than their lord.