6 ms·

This is only good advice if: a) You really know what you're worth to the person across the table. (In a crazy-hot market, it's hard to get a good handle on thi

This is only good advice if: a) You really know what you're worth to the person across the table. (In a crazy-hot market, it's hard to get a good handle on this. And if you're mentally constrained by your current salary, negotiated in a down market when you had no experience, it's hard to break free of that. It's also hard to evaluate your own skills as others see them...) b) You are completely comfortable with asking for, say, 1.5x what you're worth with a straight face; c) when the person across the table visibly flinches or chuckles or hedges - and they will; books on negotiation explicitly teach you to do this - keeping that straight face and defending the number you just asked for. So I incline to the opinion that patio11 is giving the right advice for his audience: The kind of people who secretly think of themselves as vastly overpaid and are secretly ashamed of it. I know from painful experience that if you send me into a room and ask me to anchor my own price my natural-born tendency is to tie that anchor around my own foot and then throw it into the Atlantic Ocean.

alexsb92 15y ago
Do you have any examples of some good books on negotiations?
- simonsarris 15y ago
  I've read a few. Negotiation Genius is probably the most accessible one: http://www.amazon.com/Negotiation-Genius-Obstacles-Brilliant-Bargaining/dp/055380488X http://www.amazon.com/Negotiation-Genius-Obstacles-Brilliant... Winning Through Intimidation was a fun read, especially if you're into real estate. Apparently the book is worth a lot now (I had no idea, I have an old hardcover version that I don't even see here) http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Through-Intimidation-Robert-Ringer/dp/0449207862/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327345515&sr=1-1 http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Through-Intimidation-Robert-Ri...
- peterb 15y ago
  "Getting to Yes" by Fisher, et al. and "Bargaining for Advantage" by Shell are considered classics in the field.
  - notaddicted 15y ago
    I was reading "Bargaining for Advantage" this weekend after reading another recent salary post and also recently re-negotiating my salary. I really like the book because it kind of sets down a clear set of steps and vocabulary to refer to them, and because it emphasizes information and assessment of the situation rather than psychology.
- mechanical_fish 15y ago
  I read Dawson's Secrets of Power Negotiating. I found the book made me uncomfortable, in sort of the same way I feel when I'm watching a masterfully-made infomercial. This, to me, is a sign that it was working. ;) If the sport of negotiating was as natural as breathing for me I wouldn't be reading a book about it!
- WillyF 15y ago
  I'm partial to Game, Set, Match by Henry Kramer, but I'm sure that's influenced by my taking a class with him (and truly enjoying it). http://www.amazon.com/Game-Set-Match-Winning-Negotiations/dp/0970597029/ http://www.amazon.com/Game-Set-Match-Winning-Negotiations/dp...
badclient 15y ago
If that is the case, then shouldn't a large part of the post focus on creating more options? Because if you have five interviews, I bet it is easier to be bold in negotiation than when you have one. Any other advice for the timid(than getting more options) is just beating around the bush imo.
- mechanical_fish 15y ago
  While it's theoretically great to be able to play offers off against each other, in practice it's difficult to get the timing right. Inevitably, the offers arrive out of order and you're going to have to negotiate on behalf of the other employers who will be making you offers. Moreover, even if there are no other explicit offers on the table at the moment it is in your best interests to teach yourself to imagine them, because opportunity cost is real. So I think it's a good exercise to get comfortable with negotiating one offer at a time. You need to learn to take a deep breath and realize that there are always more options. Other jobs are out there! Moreover, as patio11 points out, if the other side offers X and you ask for X + Y and they say no, rare is the negotiation that can't be salvaged by falling back to X.
  - forza 15y ago
    Most of the time you already have an offer i.e. your current employment.
  - badclient 15y ago
    Moreover, as patio11 points out, if the other side offers X and you ask for X + Y and they say no, rare is the negotiation that can't be salvaged by falling back to X. Yeah sure but already you are in a defensive position the moment you ask for more than they just proposed. It's a universally agreed negotiation tactic to make the first offer.
    - mechanical_fish 15y ago
      It's a universally agreed negotiation tactic to make the first offer Well, your argument was going better before you went this far, because now I'm going to have to ask you to take it up with Roger Dawson, author of the fairly-well-rated Secrets of Power Negotiating, from whom I learned the tactic of never naming the first number. And, while Dawson is probably exaggerating his status as one of the best negotiators on the planet - because he's got to be prepared in case you negotiate him down ;) - forgive me for betting on him against you. (Dawson's logic, by the way, is pretty clear: All else being equal, the default pattern of a negotiation is that one side names a number, the other side names a different number, and you compromise somewhere in the middle. And you're the second person you obviously have a big influence on exactly where the "middle" will be. If you want to end up at $125k, and your partner goes first and offers $120k, you know to ask for $130k or $135k, and now things go smoothly... but if you're asked to go first and you name $130k and your partner flinches and then says in a quavering voice that the budget will only stand $70k "but maybe we can make a one-time exception", now the "compromise" point is anchored around $100k and you're going to have to negotiate much more skillfully to claim your remaining $25k.) Does anyone have a negotiating book to recommend that offers fundamentally different advice from this?

alexsb92 15y ago

Do you have any examples of some good books on negotiations?

simonsarris 15y ago
I've read a few. Negotiation Genius is probably the most accessible one: http://www.amazon.com/Negotiation-Genius-Obstacles-Brilliant-Bargaining/dp/055380488X http://www.amazon.com/Negotiation-Genius-Obstacles-Brilliant... Winning Through Intimidation was a fun read, especially if you're into real estate. Apparently the book is worth a lot now (I had no idea, I have an old hardcover version that I don't even see here) http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Through-Intimidation-Robert-Ringer/dp/0449207862/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327345515&sr=1-1 http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Through-Intimidation-Robert-Ri...
peterb 15y ago
"Getting to Yes" by Fisher, et al. and "Bargaining for Advantage" by Shell are considered classics in the field.
- notaddicted 15y ago
  I was reading "Bargaining for Advantage" this weekend after reading another recent salary post and also recently re-negotiating my salary. I really like the book because it kind of sets down a clear set of steps and vocabulary to refer to them, and because it emphasizes information and assessment of the situation rather than psychology.
mechanical_fish 15y ago
I read Dawson's Secrets of Power Negotiating. I found the book made me uncomfortable, in sort of the same way I feel when I'm watching a masterfully-made infomercial. This, to me, is a sign that it was working. ;) If the sport of negotiating was as natural as breathing for me I wouldn't be reading a book about it!
WillyF 15y ago
I'm partial to Game, Set, Match by Henry Kramer, but I'm sure that's influenced by my taking a class with him (and truly enjoying it). http://www.amazon.com/Game-Set-Match-Winning-Negotiations/dp/0970597029/ http://www.amazon.com/Game-Set-Match-Winning-Negotiations/dp...

badclient 15y ago

If that is the case, then shouldn't a large part of the post focus on creating more options? Because if you have five interviews, I bet it is easier to be bold in negotiation than when you have one. Any other advice for the timid(than getting more options) is just beating around the bush imo.

mechanical_fish 15y ago
While it's theoretically great to be able to play offers off against each other, in practice it's difficult to get the timing right. Inevitably, the offers arrive out of order and you're going to have to negotiate on behalf of the other employers who will be making you offers. Moreover, even if there are no other explicit offers on the table at the moment it is in your best interests to teach yourself to imagine them, because opportunity cost is real. So I think it's a good exercise to get comfortable with negotiating one offer at a time. You need to learn to take a deep breath and realize that there are always more options. Other jobs are out there! Moreover, as patio11 points out, if the other side offers X and you ask for X + Y and they say no, rare is the negotiation that can't be salvaged by falling back to X.
- forza 15y ago
  Most of the time you already have an offer i.e. your current employment.
- badclient 15y ago
  Moreover, as patio11 points out, if the other side offers X and you ask for X + Y and they say no, rare is the negotiation that can't be salvaged by falling back to X. Yeah sure but already you are in a defensive position the moment you ask for more than they just proposed. It's a universally agreed negotiation tactic to make the first offer.
  - mechanical_fish 15y ago
    It's a universally agreed negotiation tactic to make the first offer Well, your argument was going better before you went this far, because now I'm going to have to ask you to take it up with Roger Dawson, author of the fairly-well-rated Secrets of Power Negotiating, from whom I learned the tactic of never naming the first number. And, while Dawson is probably exaggerating his status as one of the best negotiators on the planet - because he's got to be prepared in case you negotiate him down ;) - forgive me for betting on him against you. (Dawson's logic, by the way, is pretty clear: All else being equal, the default pattern of a negotiation is that one side names a number, the other side names a different number, and you compromise somewhere in the middle. And you're the second person you obviously have a big influence on exactly where the "middle" will be. If you want to end up at $125k, and your partner goes first and offers $120k, you know to ask for $130k or $135k, and now things go smoothly... but if you're asked to go first and you name $130k and your partner flinches and then says in a quavering voice that the budget will only stand $70k "but maybe we can make a one-time exception", now the "compromise" point is anchored around $100k and you're going to have to negotiate much more skillfully to claim your remaining $25k.) Does anyone have a negotiating book to recommend that offers fundamentally different advice from this?