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> Plus the country is large and sparsely populated with entrenched retail competitors. A huge portion of the Canadian population is concentrated in a few small

by jt2190 4y ago

> Plus the country is large and sparsely populated with entrenched retail competitors. A huge portion of the Canadian population is concentrated in a few small areas. Retail does not need to be evenly distributed over square area. > It's quite sad that Target murdered Zellers (my grandma liked their restaurants!) This is revisionist history. Zellers (Hudson’s Bay) was killing itself well before Target arrived (very briefly) in Canada. Both Walmart and Target really misunderstood the Canadian consumer, and believed a product packaged for the U.S. market would operate largely unchanged in Canada, and they were terribly wrong. (Walmart had to abandon it’s “everyday low prices” approach because that promise alone didn’t motivate Canadian shoppers to visit.) Ultimately both retailers had to make big adjustments: Walmart ground it out, Target decided quickly it wasn’t worth it.

908B64B197 4y ago
> and believed a product packaged for the U.S. market would operate largely unchanged in Canada, and they were terribly wrong. Really? I was under the impression cross border shopping told a vastly different story. Seems there's a lot of demand for American products by Canadian shoppers.
- jt2190 4y ago
  Not “American products” but “the retail product”, i.e. the experience of walking into a Canadian Walmart or Target and buying a good, as opposed to buying the same good from a different source. As you noted, cross-border shopping by Canadians in the U.S. is a completely different “product” (retail experience) and there’s still a ton of demand. This was probably part of the calculation that enticed Target and Walmart into Canada in the first place. Whatever was “lost” when they tried to translate the U.S. experience directly to Canada included something that mattered (and still matters) to Canadian shoppers.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    > the experience of walking into a Canadian Walmart or Target > included something that mattered (and still matters) to Canadian shoppers. What is it? From recollection, stores in Canada weren't that different than here in America.
    - jt2190 4y ago
      Who knows? Could be the HST, could be the base prices, could be selection…
  - voisin 4y ago
    I disagree re the product. Target entered Canada and did not offer anywhere near the value proposition as in American stores. They also often had empty shelves indicating they didn’t invest in logistics properly - this is table stakes! I think American companies enter Canada thinking they can half-ass it and succeed, and quickly realize that’s not the case.
    - jt2190 4y ago
      The context of this thread is that there are Canadian policies that fundamentally make the retail landscape different in Canada, and there’s no way for a foreign retailer to come in and not have to change the way they do things even if they wanted to. If Canada adjusted it’s policies to match the U.S. then Target would look the same on either side of the border.
      - voisin 4y ago
        I agree that’s the context, I just don’t buy it at all. Also, Canadian retailers don’t have a great track record going to the US.
    - skeeter2020 4y ago
      huge supply chain issues as well, with duties, tariffs, taxes and relative purchasing power. Canada is not the 51st state in your existing logistics & fulfillment process.
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  Agreed. Part of the huge demand for a Nordstrom's in Canada was to replicate the store and product offerings you encountered on cross-border shopping trips. The reality is/was that the products in a Canadian Nordstrom's or Target WERE NOT the same as in the US.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    > The reality is/was that the products in a Canadian Nordstrom's or Target WERE NOT the same as in the US. That's, to me, the puzzling part. Did brands that managed to stay in the Canadian market change their offerings? Do they have "Canadianized" Apple or Ikea for instance?
lbwtaylor 4y ago
>A huge portion of the Canadian population is concentrated in a few small areas. Retail does not need to be evenly distributed over square area. Those clusters also happen to be very far apart, and compared to the US, not actually large in size other than the TO/MTL cluster. I think the geography of Canada matters to retail success. Retailers that try to cover the market, by, for example, opening a store in Edmonton like Nordstrom did, face real logistical costs. Holt Renfrew does not cover Edmonton, for example. >This is revisionist history. Zellers (Hudson’s Bay) was killing itself well before Target arrived (very briefly) in Canada. Zellers was certainly struggling, but I believe some version of Zellers would still exist today if not for the Target acquisition, but I guess it's not possible to know that.
dieselgate 4y ago
Not disagreeing with you at all but another data point: I live in Washington state and was getting groceries at trader joes last week. Randomly saw a car with a British Columbia license plate park and a group of young people got out and took a group photo in front of Trader Joes before entering - just gave me a laugh.
- jt2190 4y ago
  You need to read up on “Pirate Joe’s”
  - dieselgate 4y ago
    Haha I'm familiar with it, such a funny concept

by jt2190 4y ago

908B64B197 4y ago

> and believed a product packaged for the U.S. market would operate largely unchanged in Canada, and they were terribly wrong. Really? I was under the impression cross border shopping told a vastly different story. Seems there's a lot of demand for American products by Canadian shoppers.

jt2190 4y ago
Not “American products” but “the retail product”, i.e. the experience of walking into a Canadian Walmart or Target and buying a good, as opposed to buying the same good from a different source. As you noted, cross-border shopping by Canadians in the U.S. is a completely different “product” (retail experience) and there’s still a ton of demand. This was probably part of the calculation that enticed Target and Walmart into Canada in the first place. Whatever was “lost” when they tried to translate the U.S. experience directly to Canada included something that mattered (and still matters) to Canadian shoppers.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > the experience of walking into a Canadian Walmart or Target > included something that mattered (and still matters) to Canadian shoppers. What is it? From recollection, stores in Canada weren't that different than here in America.
  - jt2190 4y ago
    Who knows? Could be the HST, could be the base prices, could be selection…
- voisin 4y ago
  I disagree re the product. Target entered Canada and did not offer anywhere near the value proposition as in American stores. They also often had empty shelves indicating they didn’t invest in logistics properly - this is table stakes! I think American companies enter Canada thinking they can half-ass it and succeed, and quickly realize that’s not the case.
  - jt2190 4y ago
    The context of this thread is that there are Canadian policies that fundamentally make the retail landscape different in Canada, and there’s no way for a foreign retailer to come in and not have to change the way they do things even if they wanted to. If Canada adjusted it’s policies to match the U.S. then Target would look the same on either side of the border.
    - voisin 4y ago
      I agree that’s the context, I just don’t buy it at all. Also, Canadian retailers don’t have a great track record going to the US.
  - skeeter2020 4y ago
    huge supply chain issues as well, with duties, tariffs, taxes and relative purchasing power. Canada is not the 51st state in your existing logistics & fulfillment process.
skeeter2020 4y ago
Agreed. Part of the huge demand for a Nordstrom's in Canada was to replicate the store and product offerings you encountered on cross-border shopping trips. The reality is/was that the products in a Canadian Nordstrom's or Target WERE NOT the same as in the US.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > The reality is/was that the products in a Canadian Nordstrom's or Target WERE NOT the same as in the US. That's, to me, the puzzling part. Did brands that managed to stay in the Canadian market change their offerings? Do they have "Canadianized" Apple or Ikea for instance?

lbwtaylor 4y ago

>A huge portion of the Canadian population is concentrated in a few small areas. Retail does not need to be evenly distributed over square area. Those clusters also happen to be very far apart, and compared to the US, not actually large in size other than the TO/MTL cluster. I think the geography of Canada matters to retail success. Retailers that try to cover the market, by, for example, opening a store in Edmonton like Nordstrom did, face real logistical costs. Holt Renfrew does not cover Edmonton, for example. >This is revisionist history. Zellers (Hudson’s Bay) was killing itself well before Target arrived (very briefly) in Canada. Zellers was certainly struggling, but I believe some version of Zellers would still exist today if not for the Target acquisition, but I guess it's not possible to know that.

dieselgate 4y ago

Not disagreeing with you at all but another data point: I live in Washington state and was getting groceries at trader joes last week. Randomly saw a car with a British Columbia license plate park and a group of young people got out and took a group photo in front of Trader Joes before entering - just gave me a laugh.

jt2190 4y ago
You need to read up on “Pirate Joe’s”
- dieselgate 4y ago
  Haha I'm familiar with it, such a funny concept